A concern

[JP2Iloveyou]

Let me first point out that what I am about to say is only done in the spirit of charity and fraternal correction.

I am not on Phatmass much anymore for a couple of reasons. First, I simply don't have the time, but second I am really turned off by some of the attitudes of some members of Phatmass. Many posters, in their efforts to evengelize our separated brethren, come across as being very unreasonable. Often times it appears to me that many apologists are engaging in debate for the sole purpose of winning an argument, not winning a soul for Christ. Even if it is not intended, the attitude taken by some in evangelizing only serves to turn non-Catholics off to the Church.

This can even extend to evangelization of Catholics. Most everyone on this site is a strong, devout Catholic. That's great, but we do not need to know how often you go to Mass, how often you pray the Rosary, go to Confession, and all the other details of your spiritual lives. It can come across very much like the pharisee in the Gospel who thanked God for not making him like the tax collector. Spiritual pride is a dangerous sin to fall into. This also extends to the many debates on here about liturgy, tradition (with a small "t"), and whether or not the Tridentine Rite is superior to the Novus Ordo rite. There can be a legitimate difference of opinion on these matters and this does not seem to me to be the proper forum to discuss them because it gives an aire of disunity even among Catholics. As my sig says, "You can't be more Catholic than the Pope." So, if you receive Communion kneeling, fine. If you receive standing up, fine as well. The point is that we should not flaunt our own practices as superior or as giving more reverence to God. True reverence is in the heart, in our inner room, as the Lord says. Again, be on guard against spiritual pride. Satan likes to tempt us in the most subtle of ways.

Finally, I would encourage everyone to read Pope John Paul II's encyclical letter, [i]Ut Unum Sint[/i], which can be found here [url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/ENCYC/JP2UTUNU.HTM"]http://www.ewtn.com/library/ENCYC/JP2UTUNU.HTM[/url], and to live up to the ideals that His Holiness calls us to in our evangelization and ecumenism efforts.

God Bless

[Noel's angel]

there is a lot of truth in that. Thanks for having the courage to point it out

[Aloysius]

I don't really get that impression all too often... I've never seen anyone use how often they go to mass et cetera in an argument.

And I don't think disagreement about the objective quality of each tridentine vs novus ordo really qualifies of showing disunity any more than disagrement about the objective quality of byzantine vs. tridentine or whatever. Everyone should know the Church is made up of many different rites and that while we agree on the infallible doctrines we express them differently through different rituals et cetera.

I don't know, could you maybe come up with some examples here cause we can't really generalize the entire phorum. I have seen this sane complaint pop up many times on phatmass since I've been here, but never found it had as much substance as it seemed.

[Quietfire]

[quote name='JP2Iloveyou' date='Aug 3 2005, 09:53 AM']Let me first point out that what I am about to say is only done in the spirit of charity and fraternal correction.

I am not on Phatmass much anymore for a couple of reasons.  First, I simply don't have the time, but second I am really turned off by some of the attitudes of some members of Phatmass.  Many posters, in their efforts to evengelize our separated brethren, come across as being very unreasonable.  Often times it appears to me that many apologists are engaging in debate for the sole purpose of winning an argument, not winning a soul for Christ.  Even if it is not intended, the attitude taken by some in evangelizing only serves to turn non-Catholics off to the Church.

This can even extend to evangelization of Catholics.  Most everyone on this site is a strong, devout Catholic.  That's great, but we do not need to know how often you go to Mass, how often you pray the Rosary, go to Confession, and all the other details of your spiritual lives.  It can come across very much like the pharisee in the Gospel who thanked God for not making him like the tax collector.  Spiritual pride is a dangerous sin to fall into.  This also extends to the many debates on here about liturgy, tradition (with a small "t"), and whether or not the Tridentine Rite is superior to the Novus Ordo rite.  There can be a legitimate difference of opinion on these matters and this does not seem to me to be the proper forum to discuss them because it gives an aire of disunity even among Catholics.  As my sig says, "You can't be more Catholic than the Pope."  So, if you receive Communion kneeling, fine.  If you receive standing up, fine as well.  The point is that we should not flaunt our own practices as superior or as giving more reverence to God.  True reverence is in the heart, in our inner room, as the Lord says.  Again, be on guard against spiritual pride.  Satan likes to tempt us in the most subtle of ways. 

Finally, I would encourage everyone to read Pope John Paul II's encyclical letter, [i]Ut Unum Sint[/i], which can be found here [url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/ENCYC/JP2UTUNU.HTM"]http://www.ewtn.com/library/ENCYC/JP2UTUNU.HTM[/url], and to live up to the ideals that His Holiness calls us to in our evangelization and ecumenism efforts.

God Bless
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While I totally agree with you on your second and third paragraphs, as to how many times one goes to Mass, confession etc...or whether one receives in the hand or on the tongue as I see these issues more for Open Mic, I am not sure that I agree 100% on your first paragraph.

Yes, there are times when debating seems to be reduced to mere arguing, but one must remember that this is a Catholic website. No one puts a gun to a non Catholics head and forces them to post here.
I was a Protestant when I started here. I DID read and agree with the conditions set forth by the webmaster before I signed on and posted here.
As a guest on this site (whether Protestant or Catholic) I reminded myself almost hourly that I am in someone elses home (so to speak) and went out of MY way not to offend anyone. If I were visiting a friends house, I would show the homeowner the respect that is theirs based soley on the fact that it IS their home and their rules. Even if I didnt like the decorating, the food, or was turned off by their cleaning habits..it is still their home and as such I have a responsibility to act like a mature adult and try my best to be a welcomed guest.

The internet makes us very lazy in the fact that we feel we can barge onto any particular site and 'speak our mind', the fact that we live in America makes this issue even stickier.

Someone has gone through a great deal of time, money, and energy to create a 'home' for themselves and others here. They have also put out a welcome mat for all to enjoy the bountiful harvest and gifts that they have received and wish to pass on.

As guests in this particular home, we should show our host respect.

I am sorry if you feel that some people show too much "attitude". It is your personal opinion and it is not my intention to upset you, but in all honesty....tough noogies.

I am tired of people claiming to be Catholic, or open minded Christians..sign up and agree to the conditions set by the administrator of this site....then act like the ungrateful guest from Hell and post some of the most outrageous, rude, blasphemous and heretical comments imaginable.
It would be the same as your 'best friend' coming over for dinner and spitting their meal in your mothers face with some very rude remarks to boot, with the intention of doing that from the moment you invited them. Yeah, some friend huh?
Just because this is an internet site, dont lose the fact that it is still someone's home.

While I am totally open to ANYONE wishing to learn about the faith, I simply cannot tolerate disrespectfulness.
There are many people who post on this site who are clearly non-Catholic and clearly Non-Christian even, who are polite, respectful and a joy to engage in an open and honest discussion of our religious differences and beliefs. They wish to learn simply to understand our differences without imposing any preconceived prejudices. It is obvious that we do not agree, but the conversations are amazing to read. The openess in all parties during these dialogues are so inspiring that I am positive Our Lord would be most pleased.

But lately, my stomach turns when I read some of the posts that show up here and basically state that although that person is a guest, they have no respect for those who 'reside' here.
While for quite awhile many people try to get said particular poster to engage in a more fruitfull and open dialogue and all that happens is diversion, dillusion, and accusations of not being treated in a christian like manner.
Im sorry, but I can only be so polite before the urge to tell someone to 'forgive my unpleasant disposition' takes over. My mother didnt raise idiots, yet we were taught to be patient and give as many chances as possible. Yet she also made it clear that when every avenue was searched and there were absolutely no other choices to resolve the situation and that the other person simply wouldnt let up and insist on a fight simply because it becomes obvious in the end that that is their only intention...

then we'd better wipe the floor clean with their a**.


Im bowing out here.

Pax

Edited August 3, 2005 by Quietfire

[CanCath]

This reminds me of a thread a week ago...

remember Didacus?

I think it was called "Any Liberal Catholics". I think the things that were written in THAT thread reflect what you are saying in your post. Check it out if you want, it was in Open Mike. It's a closed thread now though...

[Noel's angel]

Sometimes it is difficult to have the correct balance of speaking the Truth whist maintaining a charitable nature, however, I think that before every post, we should think about who is on the receiving end (by this I mean EVERYONE who posts on Phatmass, regardless of their title). I know it is easy to get upset and angry at others who seem to be mocking your religion, heck, I have got angry with people in the past and said things which were a bit out of line, but we all have to remember what and who we are. For a while I realised I was becoming too involved with trying to read this document and that document and getting involoved in merely political arguements about the Church, that I neglected other, much more important things. Sure, try and gain knowledge of your faith and the Church, but don't let it take over from spiritual growth and increasing your relationship with Jesus because in the end, that's what matters. Keep the Commandements, stick to the laws of the Church and try not to get overly involved in human matters which will distact us from what is really important.

[StColette]

[quote name='CanCath' date='Aug 3 2005, 12:24 PM']This reminds me of a thread a week ago...

remember Didacus?

I think it was called "Any Liberal Catholics". I think the things that were written in THAT thread reflect what you are saying in your post. Check it out if you want, it was in Open Mike. It's a closed thread now though...
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Yep I remember that thread.

[Quietfire]

Ok, so I went and read that thread to get the what what of it.

So after 13 days and 47 posts the whole of PM was judged to be unchristian like in conduct.
Wow, even I gave you guys a longer chance than that.

As a matter of fact, when I thought I was being "attacked" for my rebellious Catholic attitude by non other than Ironmonk and Katholikos, who to me are two of the MOST militant Catholics I have ever encountered, I went after them both like a chihuahua. (Ya'll know how little dogs dont see themselves as little, they take on the biggest dogs in the pack)
Both of those two gentlemen are now counted as my dearest friends.
And I miss Likos terribly and hope that he is doing well.

What started out as "attacking" and "defending" became rather teaching and learning. Once I understood their minds, I understood their hearts.

The person in that other thread never gave anyone a chance, which is honestly her loss.
Had she continued to dialogue, or at least yell a lot at us, I KNOW we would have gotten to the bottom of the situation.
She also admitted to being liberal. Phatmass is not a liberal forum. We are obedient to the Magisterium. So for her to be hurt because we do not agree with HER views means that she puts her own views higher than any others(including possibly GOD) and I see nothing but problems with that way of thinking.

To want to please God, one MUST be open to the remotest of possibilities that someone just may be more cleverer than themselves.


Pax

Edited August 3, 2005 by Quietfire

[IcePrincessKRS]

[Socrates]

[quote name='JP2Iloveyou' date='Aug 3 2005, 08:53 AM']Let me first point out that what I am about to say is only done in the spirit of charity and fraternal correction.

I am not on Phatmass much anymore for a couple of reasons.  First, I simply don't have the time, but second I am really turned off by some of the attitudes of some members of Phatmass.  Many posters, in their efforts to evengelize our separated brethren, come across as being very unreasonable.  Often times it appears to me that many apologists are engaging in debate for the sole purpose of winning an argument, not winning a soul for Christ.  Even if it is not intended, the attitude taken by some in evangelizing only serves to turn non-Catholics off to the Church.

This can even extend to evangelization of Catholics.  Most everyone on this site is a strong, devout Catholic.  That's great, but we do not need to know how often you go to Mass, how often you pray the Rosary, go to Confession, and all the other details of your spiritual lives.  It can come across very much like the pharisee in the Gospel who thanked God for not making him like the tax collector.  Spiritual pride is a dangerous sin to fall into.  This also extends to the many debates on here about liturgy, tradition (with a small "t"), and whether or not the Tridentine Rite is superior to the Novus Ordo rite.  There can be a legitimate difference of opinion on these matters and this does not seem to me to be the proper forum to discuss them because it gives an aire of disunity even among Catholics.  As my sig says, "You can't be more Catholic than the Pope."  So, if you receive Communion kneeling, fine.  If you receive standing up, fine as well.  The point is that we should not flaunt our own practices as superior or as giving more reverence to God.  True reverence is in the heart, in our inner room, as the Lord says.  Again, be on guard against spiritual pride.  Satan likes to tempt us in the most subtle of ways. 

Finally, I would encourage everyone to read Pope John Paul II's encyclical letter, [i]Ut Unum Sint[/i], which can be found here [url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/ENCYC/JP2UTUNU.HTM"]http://www.ewtn.com/library/ENCYC/JP2UTUNU.HTM[/url], and to live up to the ideals that His Holiness calls us to in our evangelization and ecumenism efforts.

God Bless
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I don't get the impression that most Catholics on this site are being prideful in their arguments. This is the DEBATE forum, after all. I think it can be legitimate to debaten what liturgical practices are best, so long as it does not get personal.

TO tell the truth I've seen the most arrogance and pride from those attacking the Catholic Faith (tho maybe I'm biased) Not naming any names, but they could definitely use a little less smugness and arrogance.

[Paladin D]

[b]Quietfire[/b] expressed pretty much my feelings on this matter. We have to be sensitive to the person on the other side, but they also have to do their part. If they expect to get a charitable answer, they better understand how to treat others as well. I've been to several debating forums, and one of the most crucial things to keep in mind is:

[b]"Do onto others as you would want them to do to you."[/b]

I've seen debates succumb to petty name-calling matches, simply because one person didn't follow this rule. People who sign up on Phatmass to debate should know this rule, if not, then they shouldn't be in this section.

[Aloysius]

"Be ye wise as serpents and simple as doves." -Jesus Christ

[HomeTeamFamily]

wow same stuff, different poster.....come on people, is it really worth arguing about...........arguing? we know this argument, its been done....youre not really uncovering any new ground here......get over it and leave if you are gonna leave

i still dont understand why people who say they are leaving dont just leave....they have to make this big deal out of it and always get the last word in........

maybe thats why i never post in the debate table

[CanCath]

[quote name='VoloHumilisEsse' date='Aug 4 2005, 02:07 AM']wow same stuff, different poster.....come on people, is it really worth arguing about...........arguing?  we know this argument, its been done....youre not really uncovering any new ground here......get over it and leave if you are gonna leave

i still dont understand why people who say they are leaving dont just leave....they have to make this big deal out of it and always get the last word in........

maybe thats why i never post in the debate table
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Um... yeah, that's what I meant when I posted earlier. This has been discussed EXTENSIVELY on that other thread. 7-pages in one day actually. And the thread got closed, so I think that is a good indication to drop the subject.

[HomeTeamFamily]

sorry i didnt really care to read all the posts, i just figured it was the same dribble

[Noel's angel]

maybe you should read them then. I don't think JPIIove you said that they were going to leave, and it is a valid point. It isn't an arguement here, its just a discussion

[Jaime]

I just got done reading the liberal thread. I'm totally bummed I missed that one.

Perhaps we can turn this into a more fruitful conversation. (Sorry if this is a hijack)

HOW DOES ONE SHOW THE LOVE OF GOD TO ANOTHER?

Personally, I try to use the example that was set before me. How did Christ teach?

If one assesses the methods that Christ used, you cannot come up with directness as his primary tool of sharing the Truth. In fact for every example of Christ being confrontational, you can find multiple examples of him teaching through parables. For every time that Christ appeared to respond in anger, you find multiple examples of him responding with love. With giving something to the sinner. (Ok it was in the form of a miracle but you get my point)

If Christ, the Ultimate Teacher, refrained from teaching with direct and confrontational methods, [i]and still got the Truth out[/i] who am I to assume I have a better method?

[Carrie]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Aug 4 2005, 11:39 AM']I just got done reading the liberal thread.  I'm totally bummed I missed that one.

Perhaps we can turn this into a more fruitful conversation. (Sorry if this is a hijack)

HOW DOES ONE SHOW THE LOVE OF GOD TO ANOTHER?

Personally, I try to use the example that was set before me.  How did Christ teach? 

If one assesses the methods that Christ used,  you cannot come up with directness as his primary tool of sharing the Truth.  In fact for every example of Christ being confrontational, you can find multiple examples of him teaching through parables.  For every time that Christ appeared to respond in anger, you find multiple examples of him responding with love.  With giving something to the sinner.  (Ok it was in the form of a miracle but you get my point)

If Christ, the Ultimate Teacher, refrained from teaching with direct and confrontational methods,  [i]and still got the Truth out[/i] who am I to assume I have a better method?
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Excellent post.

We all have different methods of learning and different methods of teaching.

What is right for some is not right for others, but that does not make either method less valuable.

Let's not judge each other's teaching methods but embrace the differences.

[Noel's angel]

ahhh, but lets also realise that we have faults in our methods

[JP2Iloveyou]

I think that you guys are getting at my main point, which is that we should never resort to name calling or shoving the faith down another's throat, or calling non-Catholics heretics, or well, you get the idea.

hot stuff pointed out exactly what I was getting at. Christ did not evangelize in this way. Even if we have the truth, and we understand it and embrace it, not everyone else does. Perhaps the Lord has led that person to this site to introduce them to the truth. If that is the case, we have a responsibility to accurately present the faith, but to do so in a charitable way so as never to drive anyone away. Even if others resort to being confrontational and to name-calling, we must never do likewise.

Remember the words of St. Francis, "Preach the Gospel at all times. When necessary, use words." Many people take this quote to an extreme and by it justify never defending their faith through their words, but nevertheless, St. Francis has a point. The best way to present the Gospel to others is not to ram Scripture verses, Church documents, and endless apologetics down their throats. The best way to present someone the Gospel is to show it one's actions. After they have accepted that Gospel, THEN, we can begin explaining why the Catholic faith is the fullness of truth.

Perhaps this problem is not as prevalent as I am perceiving it to be. If it is not, I sincerely apologize. I really don't have any certain people in mind in writing this, just a general word of advice. Part of true Christian love is pointing out the faults of our brothers and sisters so as to aid that person on his or her path to Heaven.

Anyway, let's just remember that God has given us a great gift in the Catholic faith. We have a responsibility to share it with others, but never do anything that would drive that person away. Perhaps that even means not sharing all of the truth if a person is not ready to hear it yet. Note, this does not mean to share a FALSE truth, but there is no law of evangelization that says we must explain every aspect of the Catholic faith to every single person and tell them that they must accept all of it or forfeit their salvation. Also, again, we must hate our own sins. The sin of pride is what got Satan kicked out of Heaven, so again, in true charity I only caution you against the sin of spiritual pride.

The great saints were all reluctant to share anything regarding their spiritual life. St. Therese of Lisieux, for example, only wrote [i]Story of a Soul[/i] out of obedience to her spiritual director.