Smoke and annihilationism

[Anastasia13]

(NKJV) Psalm 37:20 But the wicked shall perish;
And the enemies of the LORD,
Like the splendor of the meadows, shall vanish.
Into smoke they shall vanish away.

Can anyone give me a good reason how the part of this that says "Into smoke they shall vanish away" does not support annihilation of the unsaved?

Also, if anyone can give me a short explanation about the use of smoke here, in Isaiah 34 discussing the judgment of Edom, and in Revelation like where it speaks of the smoke of their torment rising forever, I would be quite appreciative.

[Jake Huether]

Great question. Like much of the Bible, physical realities are used to help illustrate spiritual realities.

Like the... meadows.
Into smoke...

Physical realities giving us a hint of what happens spiritually.

In the case of "vanishing", the Psalmist isn't necessitating a vanishing of substance - i.e. annihilation, but merely a vanishing from the presence of the Lord. The enemies of God will vanish from the presence of the Lord (the definition of being in Hell).

Smoke itself only vanishes from our sight. But the substance of smoke still exists even after we stop seeing it.

I'm not sure anyone can give you a good reason why this one quote from Scripture doesn't support annihilation of the unsaved. I suppose any single quote from Scripture taken by itself could be used to support any number of ideas. It is the Word of God taken as a whole, with the meaning God intended it to have as it passed His Lips, that we must look at to test the annihilation theory.

If annihilation was real, then happy are those who have been sent to hell, for it will be a short while still then they will no longer suffer - since they will no longer exist. But surely this is false! The Lord has spoken, and Hell is real and eternal.

In regards to the use of smoke - one could take several meanings from this. Again, though, smoke is used to show more than just physical reality. Look beyond it to the spiritual.

Hell isn't going to be a physically firey place. Smoke, then, is used as a metaphor to convey the reality of the torment and suffering of those in hell. Sulfer and pitch and fire are used to depict the realities that will happen not only physically to an extent, but also spiritually.

I have to admit, Isaiah is a heavy reading. It cannot be understood without first knowing the bounds of reality, taught by the Church - otherwise all sorts of interpretations of the end times, etc. etc. could be construed from this.

In the Book of Rev. smoke is used to depict realities of both good and bad.

Rev 15:

[quote]8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God and from his power[/quote]

But again, it conveys spiritual realities in a way that is easy (relatively speaking) for us to understand.

Hope that helps.

God bless.

Edited August 3, 2005 by Jake Huether

[Guest Eremite]

[quote]"The smoke of the fire that torments them will rise forever and ever, and there will be no relief day or night for those who worship the beast or its image or accept the mark of its name."

--Revelation 14:11[/quote]

Note that the smoke "torments" them, and rises up for ever and ever.

A person who does not exist cannot be tormented.

[Anastasia13]

[quote name='Eremite' date='Aug 3 2005, 02:10 PM']Note that the smoke "torments" them, and rises up for ever and ever.

A person who does not exist cannot be tormented.
[right][snapback]670395[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
The smoke is the cause and not the result of the torment?

[Guest Eremite]

[quote name='Light and Truth' date='Aug 3 2005, 03:17 PM']The smoke is the cause and not the result of the torment?
[right][snapback]670423[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

No, the smoke is the result of the "fire", which torments the damned.

The "fire" may or may not be a literal fire. Either way, it represents the wrath of God, and the person's total consumption in their own sin.

"Smoke" represents something which is rising. For example, the smoke of incense in the Old Testament represents the prayers of Israel rising to God. The smoke of hell represents the eternal wrath of God rising up from the abyss.

[Anastasia13]

Edom in Isaiah 34 was destroyed as a result of it's judgement yet verse 10 says its smoke will rise forever. How does that relate in an argument against annihilationism?

[Quietfire]

by those very last words you stated. "Its smoke will rise forever."
Still going on.
Edom's destruction is the result of sin, continuing, smoke rising forever.
That is Hell. When we sin, our punishment (in Hell) is the continuation of the sin, over and over. That smoke doesnt stop. That is not annihalation, that is the continuation of suffering again and again and again.

Edom condemned itself to that suffering again, and again, and again.
For those who choose to be blinded by the smoke of sin, they will suffer forever. They will never be able to see the face of God, they will never be able to see the glory of God. To those in Hell, it is eternity behind the smoke, suffering, hating, sinning, pain, loss, never ending torture.

Its quite chilling.

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='Eremite' date='Aug 3 2005, 03:22 PM']"Smoke" represents something which is rising. For example, the smoke of incense in the Old Testament represents the prayers of Israel rising to God. The smoke of hell represents the eternal wrath of God rising up from the abyss.[right][snapback]670435[/snapback][/right][/quote]
actually, if our prayers and words of praise are like holy smoke rising up to heaven, then the smoke from Edom's destruction would be the cries and words of despair of those who suffer. the fact that it rises forever would then reflect the eternal nature of their torment.

the navarre commentary on this section of isaiah is enlightening:[list][b]34:1-17. [/b]Edom, the nation descended from Esau, tried to block the Israelites' route to the promised land during the Exodus (cf. Num 20:14-21). The rivalry between the Edomites (or Idumeans) and the Israelites is explained in the story of Esau and Jacob (Gen 25:19ff) and it seems to have continued down the centuries. The Idumeans took advantage of the destruction of Jerusalem in 597 BC and the deportation of the Jews to Babylon to occupy the southern part of Judah. This chapter probably refers to those events, while not losing sight of the previous rivalry that existed. It begins with a call to all the nations: the whole world must hear God's sentence against the Edomites. It is a severe one, similar to that in Ezekiel 35:1-15. The language is vivid and evocative: the killing of lambs and goats (v. 6) suggests that the destruction of Edom is a sort of burnt offering in honour of the Lord; the fire and brimstone (vs. 9) are reminiscent of the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah (Gen 19:24-28). The chaos (v. 11) echoes that which preceded creation (Gen 1:2). The wild beasts (vv. 14-15) symbolizes a scene of devastation. "The night hag" ("Lilit" in Hebrew) is the name of a demon in Babylonian mythology, depicted as having th ehead and trunk of a woman and the wings and feet of a bird.

The cosmic confusion described in vs. 4 was interpreted by many Fathers of the Church in an eschatological sense, as having to do with the second coming of Christ and the last judgment: "Our Lord Jesus Christ will come down from heaven; he will bring the glory of the end of the world on the last day [. . .]. Corruption, robbery, adultery, sins of every kind have spread everywhere, and blood is imngled with blood of the earth. And so that this place may no longer be tainted by sin, this world will pass away, and a new and better world will be rought into being. Do you need proof of this from the Scriptures? Listen to Isaiah: [i]All the host of heaven shall rot away, and the skies roll up like a scroll. All their host shall fall, as leaves fall from the vine, like leaves falling from the fig tree[/i]" (St Cyril of Jerusalem, [i]Catecheses ad illuminandos[/i], 15, 3).
[/list]i hope that helps

pax christi,
phatcatholic

Edited August 4, 2005 by phatcatholic

[phatcatholic]

L&T..........you may also want to check out [url="http://www.phatmass.com/directory/index.php/cat_id/201"][b]this section[/b][/url] on soul sleep and annihilationism and [url="http://www.phatmass.com/directory/index.php/cat_id/157"][b]this section[/b][/url] on hell.

pax christi,
phatcatholic

Edited August 4, 2005 by phatcatholic