Racial profiling

[Socrates]

I realize this is a "sensitive" subject, and i'm probably going to get a lot of heat for this, but I argue that "racial profiling" (and other profiling) is not only appropriate, but is indeed necessary for law enforcement to be effective.

The current controversy over "racial profiling" (particularly regarding anti-terrorism law-enforcement) is yet another example of political correctness trumping simple comon sense.

The truth is that every cop needs to do some type of "profiling" to do his job with any effectiveness. To nab criminals (or terrorists), he can't afford to waste time checking everybody equally on account of some abstract idea of equality and fairness. To find criminals, he must pay attention to those who appear more likely to be criminals. (And, like it or not, statistically people of certain ages, races, and gender are statistically more likely to be criminals than others).

In the case of Islamic terrorists, the fact is that most of these are young, middle-eastern men. Therefore, it is common sense, that people of this description should receive extra attention in anti-terrorist measures, such as checking people boarding an airplane. Is this "fair" to the fast majority of young middle-eastern men who are not terrorist? Probably not, but the it would not be fair to society as a whole to waste valuable time searching white grannies and other unlikely suspects in the name of filling some p.c. "quotas" game.

The same principles apply to other kinds of "profiling" too.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Semperviva' date='Aug 4 2005, 11:17 AM']seriously..
if you are looking for a white suspect ..
you suspect lots of WHITE PPL!!!!!!! thats the way of an investigation!!!! u don't go looking for a Syrian if the suspect is caucasian!!!!!!!

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Semper, Syrians ARE Caucasion. So are Arabs. :

[Christie_M]

[color=purple]Hi pleople,

this is Christines sisters, Cathy and Carolyne [/color]

Edited August 4, 2005 by Christie_M

[Christie_M]

Oop, Christine said that this was a debat thing...

[Carrie]

[url="http://www.nyclu.org/mta_searches_suit_pr_080405.html"]HERE[/url] is an article from the NYCLU about the lawsuit that was filed yesterday.

"August 4, 2005 -- In response to the NYPD's unprecedented policy of subjecting millions of New Yorkers to suspicion-less searches, the New York Civil Liberties Union today filed suit in federal court seeking an injunction to halt the policy. The lawsuit filed today argues that the NYPD is violating the Fourth Amendment rights of commuters by adopting and enforcing a policy of searching possessions of those seeking to enter the subway system without any suspicion of wrongdoing. Since the police adopted this policy two weeks ago, officers have searched the purses, handbags, briefcases and backpacks of thousands of people, all without any suspicion of wrongdoing."

[Nicole8223]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Aug 4 2005, 07:27 PM']I realize this is a "sensitive" subject, and i'm probably going to get a lot of heat for this, but I argue that "racial profiling" (and other profiling) is not only appropriate, but is indeed necessary for law enforcement to be effective.

The current controversy over "racial profiling" (particularly regarding anti-terrorism law-enforcement) is yet another example of political correctness trumping simple comon sense.

The truth is that every cop needs to do some type of "profiling" to do his job with any effectiveness.  To nab criminals (or terrorists), he can't afford to waste time checking everybody equally on account of some abstract idea of equality and fairness.  To find criminals, he must pay attention to those who appear more likely to be criminals.  (And, like it or not, statistically people of certain ages, races, and gender are statistically more likely to be criminals than others).

In the case of Islamic terrorists, the fact is that most of these are young, middle-eastern men.  Therefore, it is common sense, that people of this description should receive extra attention in anti-terrorist measures, such as checking people boarding an airplane.  Is this "fair" to the fast majority of young middle-eastern men who are not terrorist?  Probably not, but the it would not be fair to society as a whole to waste valuable time searching white grannies and other unlikely suspects in the name of filling some p.c. "quotas" game.

The same principles apply to other kinds of "profiling" too.
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I still think it is an unfair practice to suspect every young middle-eastern man. I wish I had numbers of the percentage of terrorists versus the general population of young arab men. I'm sure it is a VERY small percentage. If there was a specific crime where cops were told it is a middle eastern person, than they can suspect middle eastern people. But to assume they may be a terrorist with no logical cause is prejudiced. Racial profiling is ridiculous without a specific crime or description of a criminal. To assume that certain races are prone to criminal acts is just wrong.

[Carrie]

[quote name='Nicole8223' date='Aug 5 2005, 11:08 AM']To assume that certain races are prone to criminal acts is just wrong.
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And illegal!

[Cam42]

[quote name='Eremite' date='Aug 4 2005, 10:25 AM']If an eyewitness says the man who robbed the bank was white, does it not make sense to keep your eye out for a white man holding a sack of money?

If you have a characteristic of a suspect, you should use it in your investigation, whether it's height, weight, race, hair color, whatever.

So people don't like that they have the same profile of a criminal. So what? Blame the criminal for being a thieving white man. Don't blame the police for searching him out.
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[quote name='Carrie']Yes, exactly!

(although I don't know if the first example can even be called racial profiling...not sure)[/quote]

That is not racial profiling....that is criminal profiling.

That is totally acceptable. If it weren't, then the police could never search for the aggressor. If the race of the person is not the major focus, then it is acceptable to profile.

An example. In my job, if I see someone, anyone, walk into my store with a large coat, in the summer, I am profiling that person as a potential thief. I don't care if he or she is white, black, or green. What I am going to do, is set my team to a heightened sense of awareness to that person.

The same holds true if a person walks into my store with a backpack, large bag, or anything that would point to them as a potential thief. If I don't do that, then I am not protecting my investment.

It is acceptable. Not all profiling is bad, if it happens that the person that I am criminally profiling meets the criteria and happens to be black, does not mean that I am racially profiling the person, but rather that I am cirminally profiling the person. I can feel at ease with that, and I will also continue to do so.

Does this work? Well, my store was $8.00 short last year with sales of over $1.3 million. Yep. It works. And it is legal.

[Carrie]

[quote name='Cam42' date='Aug 5 2005, 11:23 AM'][quote name='Carrie']Yes, exactly!

(although I don't know if the first example can even be called racial profiling...not sure)[/quote]

That is not racial profiling....that is criminal profiling.
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[/quote]

That's it, thanks!

[quote]Does this work?  Well, my store was $8.00 short last year with sales of over $1.3 million.  Yep.  It works.  And it is legal.[/quote]

What you're doing here is loss prevention.

That's perfectly fine because you're profiling based on suspicious behavior (coat in the summer, large bags) and have a justified cause for keeping an eye on them.

Not racial profiling at all, so I agree with you here.



Back to racial profiling when it comes to searching bags...

Being as profiling is illegal, can this be justified?

Are we giving up civil liberties if we do justify this?

What do you guys think of the NYCLU filing a lawsuit?

[Cam42]

[quote name='Carrie' date='Aug 5 2005, 10:45 AM'][quote]That is not racial profiling....that is criminal profiling.
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That's it, thanks!
What you're doing here is loss prevention.

That's perfectly fine because you're profiling based on suspicious behavior (coat in the summer, large bags) and have a justified cause for keeping an eye on them.

Not racial profiling at all, so I agree with you here.
Back to racial profiling when it comes to searching bags...

Being as profiling is illegal, can this be justified?

Are we giving up civil liberties if we do justify this?

What do you guys think of the NYCLU filing a lawsuit?
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[/quote]

I think that racial profiling is wrong, let's start there and let's be totally clear. [b]It is a form of discrimination[/b].....As far as profiling when it comes to bags, are the authorities profiling because of race or because of criminality of the area? This is what I mean....if a person of Arab descent were to move to my parents town of 5000 in Iowa, and they were constantly searched by the police, yes, it would be wrong, precisely because there is no history of Arab terrorism. However, if a person of Arab descent is being searched in NYC, where there is a confirmed history of Arab terrorism, I am not so sure.

Are the authorities searching them because they are Arab or because they are fitting the criminal profile of a terrorist? That is what he NYCLU will have to prove. Should they file a lawsuit? Sure, it is their right to do so, but the impotice will be on them to prove their case. I think that will be a far bit tougher to do.

[Carrie]

[quote]However, if a person of Arab descent is being searched in NYC, where there is a confirmed history of Arab terrorism, I am not so sure.[/quote]

See, this is where I wonder if we’re making rationalizations to justify racial profiling. Are we basically saying that racial profiling should be illegal in some situations but legal in others?

That is going to quickly become very confusing.

And if it gets legalized in this one particular area…who knows what’s next. At some point along the way, someone else is going to try and justify racial profiling in another situation and on and on until its totally legal.


[quote]Are the authorities searching them because they are Arab or because they are fitting the criminal profile of a terrorist?[/quote]

Since they are trying to legalize racial profiling in this case, I would assume because they are Arab.

If they were searching them because they fit a criminal profile or were suspicious in any way, then racial profiling wouldn’t be an issue.

[Cam42]

[quote]See, this is where I wonder if we’re making rationalizations to justify racial profiling. Are we basically saying that racial profiling should be illegal in some situations but legal in others?[/quote]

[quote]Since they are trying to legalize racial profiling in this case, I would assume because they are Arab.[/quote]

Do you see your move here? You are taking a question and applying an answer as an absolute. That can't be done, yet. That is why I said:

[quote]Are the authorities searching them because they are Arab or because they are fitting the criminal profile of a terrorist?[/quote]

You are on the right track when you say,

[quote]If they were searching them because they fit a criminal profile or were suspicious in any way, then racial profiling wouldn’t be an issue.[/quote]

That is exactly what the NYCLU has to prove. If they do, fine. Until then, I would be willing to say that it is not racial profiling, per se, but rather criminal profiling until it is proven otherwise.

[Carrie]

[quote name='Cam42' date='Aug 5 2005, 01:03 PM']Do you see your move here?  You are taking a question and applying an answer as an absolute.  That can't be done, yet. 
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Hmm, thank you for pointing out the error I made there. Can you tell I'm new at debating?


I'm going to have to re-work this a bit...

[Jaime]

One type of profiling I am completely 100% behind

Yankees profiling

If they're in a Yankee uniform, they smell of elderberries!!

[Carrie]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Aug 5 2005, 04:47 PM']One type of profiling I am completely 100% behind

Yankees profiling

If they're in a Yankee uniform, they smell of elderberries!!
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GO hot stuff, GO hot stuff, GO hot stuff!!!!!!!


How can I reward you for your apparent dedication to spreading the word about how much the Yankees smell of elderberries?

[Anastasia13]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Aug 4 2005, 05:30 PM']Semper, Syrians ARE Caucasion.  So are Arabs.  :
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Caucasians are people from the Caucasus Mountains. Everyone else categorized that way is simply such by once seemingly logical standards lumping people together. Ok, so with two of my great grandparents from the Causasus I'm a little picky there. Two others were Scandinavian and there is a difference.

[Anastasia13]

[quote name='Eremite' date='Aug 4 2005, 08:46 AM']Ok, I see what you're saying.

Racial profiling, in the context of a specific search (eg, a white man just robbed a bank and you're looking for him) is necessary.

Racial profiling, as in white men rob banks and so we're gonna search every white man who walks into a bank, is over the top.
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It should be the ones that fit the description of the suspect. I'm assuming that since we would know that in this example he was white, there would be some other idea of what he looked like.

What about appearance profiling rather than racial profiling. Skin tone, face shape, nose shape, hight, etc. if it is for a specific incident that has already occurred but refraining from mentioning race?

As a person of part Middle Eastern descent with a very Middle Eastern looking uncle and a brother who took more of the Middle Eastern phenotype than I did, I agree with a certain amount of some kind of profiling at times, although after 9/11 there may have been a tad much.

I have an aquaintance on another board with a thread about racial profiling and he wrote:
[quote]So, the Irish Republican Army throws grenades at cafés and other places of interest around London and Belfast.

As a response, the British government grows suspicious of bad people. So lets pretend they start searching people at checkpoints. However, they are scared that they might get accused of racial profiling, so they can only check one Irish person per every 50 people of another race.

The logic of that would be baffling. Not only does one of the letters in "IRA" stand for "Irish," but now we have resorted to reverse profiling, meaning that, in practice, non-Irish people are now more suspect than Irish people.

You can run the same hypotheticals with the Basque in Spain if you want something more current.

Lets pretend somebody breaks into my house. I happen to notice that he is Latino. I chase him out using my incredible powers of intimidation (yeah right). Anyway, later on, I happen to notice somebody that looks like him. Strangely enough, this similar-looking person is not black, white, asian, or female. Wouldn't you know it, this person is Latino. I know this is a shock, but my brain has just done an instant profile.

Okay. So fair is fair. Not everybody in Al Quaeda is middle-eastern. A few are even white. A few are probably black. We know that a bunch are south-east Asian because of terrorist cells opperating in the Jakarta area. Just the same, I am sure not every member of the IRA is Irish. However, most are.

Now, lets think strategically.

If most of the terrorists have been of middle-eastern descent, and most of the members of Al-Queada working to attack American interests are also of middle-eastern descent, how come most of the people that we check at the airport are not also of middle-eastern descent?[/quote]

Edited August 5, 2005 by Light and Truth

[jasJis]

"Racial Profiling" is the application of a misnomer to applying logic and reason when deciding who to search. As a middle eastern neighbor says 'Please, profile me. I'd rather be searched by the police then the other two options. 1.) Getting "searched" by a couple of Bubbas (we live in the south), or 2.) having some rag head blow up the bus I'm riding with him in because he wasn't searched because they were only checking every 5th person in line and the 21yo Pakistani student with a backpack was 4th.'
Stupidity kills.

[RandomProddy]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Aug 4 2005, 05:36 PM']You don't strike me as an old lady. 
But I would agree that it seems illogical to search women in general.
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Terrorist groups started using women for this exact reason (one example, the Black Widows at Beslan..)

[Socrates]

[quote name='Light and Truth' date='Aug 5 2005, 03:15 PM']Caucasians are people from the Caucasus Mountains.  Everyone else categorized that way is simply such by once seemingly logical standards lumping people together.  Ok, so with two of my great grandparents from the Causasus I'm a little picky there. Two others were Scandinavian and there is a difference.
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I'm not sure why the term "Caucasian" was termed to refer to "white" and related peoples, but "Caucasian" in the sense I was using refers to the broad racial category of people from the area covering roughly Europe, North Africa, and Western Asia. People from Scandinavia and the Middle East are more related to each other racially than they are to people from sub-saharan Africa or east Asia.

Edited August 7, 2005 by Socrates