Is it ok to....

[Michael D.]

A question inspired by another post. I'm curious about what everbody thinks and what that means for everybody. To clarify just a smidge, i don't mean the teachings on the core issues of faith, im talking about all the other stuff here.

[philothea]

Well that's an easy one.

Not even a tiny bit.

(Disclaimer: I speak only for myself and do not presume to impose anything on anyone else. I am an ignorant nobody.)

[cmotherofpirl]

Which teaching?

[Birgitta Noel]

It's my understanding (correct me if I'm wrong here) that we may disagree on some things, but that we are called to obedience!

[Laudate_Dominum]

to knowingly and willfully deny a definitive teaching of the Church is formal heresy, and grave sin.

[Laudate_Dominum]

And one doing so may incur automatic excommunication.

Check out this thread that I made which outlines the degrees of authority in Church teachings:

[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=37370&hl="]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=37370&hl=[/url]

[Quietfire]

In Mike's post, he stated "not" when it came to core issues.

I think he is trying to ask if its ok to disagree with things that arent core issues.
Like, for instance, praying to a saint.


Pax

[track2004]

My school, a Catholic one, said that I could not agree with stuff liek the healing waters of whereever and that I don't necessarily have to pray to saints. It seems like overall there are a lot of personal or cultural customs that aren't necessary. Like I'm totally good when they say that the Host becomes the Body of Christ, but I don't have a saint I routinely pray to.

[CanCath]

[quote name='philothea' date='Aug 7 2005, 12:48 AM']Well that's an easy one.

Not even a tiny bit. 

(Disclaimer: I speak only for myself and do not presume to impose anything on anyone else.  I am an ignorant nobody.)
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[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='Aug 7 2005, 08:07 AM']to knowingly and willfully deny a definitive teaching of the Church is formal heresy, and grave sin.
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Isn't it ok to disagree with a teaching of the Church as long as you are in the process of understanding it? Like, if you are disagreeing with the Church's teaching on homosexuality but open-minded and want to see why the church teaches that way because you do not wish to disagree?

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='CanCath' date='Aug 7 2005, 11:54 AM']Isn't it ok to disagree with a teaching of the Church as long as you are in the process of understanding it? Like, if you are disagreeing with the Church's teaching on homosexuality but open-minded and want to see why the church teaches that way because you do not wish to disagree?
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[/quote]
Yes, you can have an imperfect assent to a teaching that is not understood and not be in a state of formal heresy. But if you went around saying the Church was flat out wrong and you were right that would be a different story. It's ok to say, "this is a hard saying", but continue to follow Christ and hope to understand.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Quietfire' date='Aug 7 2005, 08:54 AM']In Mike's post, he stated "not" when it came to core issues.

I think he is trying to ask if its ok to disagree with things that arent core issues. 
Like, for instance, praying to a saint.
Pax
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[/quote]
The poll indicated "teachings of the Church". There is no such thing as core issues, there are definitive teachings and then there are different schools of speculation, disciplines, pastoral policies and recommendations/customs, etc.

If the latter do not contradict the former, there is no issue of heresy, and there is certainly room for variation and disagreement among those things which are not definitive or even doctrinal per se. For example, praying to saints is not a mandate or teaching of the Church. There is a teaching of the Church that it is good and holy to pray to saints, but there is no definitive mandate to pray to a saint, although it's unavoidable if you are a practicing Catholic because saints are invoked in the Mass. And if a Catholic refused to pray to saints because they thought it was wrong, they would be at the very least a material heretic.

See this thread that I made lastnight for clarification on the levels of doctrine:
[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=37370&hl="]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=37370&hl=[/url]

[qfnol31]

This doesn't have to do with a post of mine, does it?

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='qfnol31' date='Aug 7 2005, 02:05 PM']This doesn't have to do with a post of mine, does it?
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[/quote]
Nope.. it might relate though, not sure. but I was just responding to the quoted post.

[qfnol31]

LoL, sorry...I meant the poll in general.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='qfnol31' date='Aug 7 2005, 02:07 PM']LoL, sorry...I meant the poll in general.
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[/quote]
teehee.. oh.. not sure.

[qfnol31]

If it does, I most certainly wish to clarify...'cause I'd have been misunderstood.

[jasJis]

Mike D. Your question is too ambiguous. You have to know the whole teaching of the Church before you decide. For example, devotion to a saint or belief in a specific miracle is usually optional. The Church may deem something 'worthy of belief', but not require assent of will to believe it.

The Church specifically says one must follow their conscience, even if it goes against the Church, but the standard for properly forming your conscience and giving full weight to the FULL teaching of the Church IS REQUIRED FIRST. That's the fine print part that many dissenters forget. Also, what you may choose for yourself personally, (when it disagrees w/ the Church) is not to be promoted and taught to others as 'correct'.

btw; I didn't vote because the correct answer isn't there.

Edited August 7, 2005 by jasJis

[Michael D.]

i guess it is kinda ambigious... i wasn't really sure what i was asking i suppose... it was in response to several posts ive read that mentioned things being against church teaching which made them automatically (so it seemed) wrong. though some of this has cleared up my understanding quite a bit. thanks-

[dspen2005]

on matters of faith and morals -- dogma, doctrine -- definitely not... but in cases that do not pertain to these matters -- social policy, environmental policy, etc... then it is permitted to disagree. HOWEVER, as Catholics we are obliged to prayerfully consider the opinions of the Church and to guide ourselves accordingly -- afterall who is the Pope to us, but our Spiritual Director

[Socrates]

When the Church teaches on Faith and Morals, we must agree, period. No excuses.