North Korea or Iran which one is more threatening?

[Mark of the Cross]

[img]http://www.websmileys.com/sm/violent/sterb002.gif[/img]

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Ed Normile' date='21 February 2010 - 02:21 PM' timestamp='1266780107' post='2060558']
Stern, many of the weapons of mass destruction were actually engineered by chemical Ali at home. Then there is the matter of a reported 100 suitcase nuclear bombs that were sold on the black market after the fall of russia, which were reported to be in Iraq. Saddam used home brewed mustard gas to take out 300.000 of his countrymen who were revolting against him. Sodam insane also promised to wipe out israel. I guess you realize that America has not profited from or taken one ounce of oil from Iraq, we are also rebuilding the structures we destroyed and helping the citizens there in many humanitary ways. This leader was taking monies that were tobe directed to helping his poor and sick and using them to amass a war chest of munitions, which were smuggled out during the early part of our invasion to places such as sudan, there was clear evidence of trucks leaving brudened with weapons to kuwait turkey and syria. this was not a perfect war, is there such a monster? But this was a war which was needed in many ways, just ask the people of Iraq.

ed
[/quote]

Ed, that wasn't only mustard gas he used at Halabja. There was also nerve gas. And the United State (at the time) said that Saddam wasn't necessarily the one who did it. Of course, he got military and financial assistance from the United State, so of course he wasn't officially pinned for it. That would have implied culpability. So it was best not to even admit the possibility.

There seems to have been a lot of contradictory "intelligence" circulating around the time of the invasion, wasn't there, Ed? Trucks going into Turkey and Kuwait? Two countries that hate the Iraqis' guts? Really? Do you have any documentation of that? The only weapons that went into Kuwait from Iraq were SCUDs.

[quote]
"This leader was taking monies that were to be directed to helping hispoor and sick and using them to amass a war chest of munitions,"[/quote]

[i]Boy[/i], does [i]that[/i] sound familiar. The United State [i]alone[/i] does 40% of the total world's military spending. [i]China[/i] does a mere 5.8%! Maybe the United State should invade itself and change the regime. The people don't seem to want to or be able to do it on their own. But then, they probably wouldn't recognize freedom if they saw it. It probably shouldn't bother.

~Sternhauser

Edited February 21, 2010 by Sternhauser

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='21 February 2010 - 06:11 PM' timestamp='1266793897' post='2060704']
Ed, that wasn't only mustard gas he used at Halabja. There was also nerve gas. And the United State (at the time) said that Saddam wasn't necessarily the one who did it. Of course, he got military and financial assistance from the United State, so of course he wasn't officially pinned for it. That would have implied culpability. So it was best not to even admit the possibility.

There seems to have been a lot of contradictory "intelligence" circulating around the time of the invasion, wasn't there, Ed? Trucks going into Turkey and Kuwait? Two countries that hate the Iraqis' guts? Really? Do you have any documentation of that? The only weapons that went into Kuwait from Iraq were SCUDs.



[i]Boy[/i], does [i]that[/i] sound familiar. The United State [i]alone[/i] does 40% of the total world's military spending. [i]China[/i] does a mere 5.8%! Maybe the United State should invade itself and change the regime. The people don't seem to want to or be able to do it on their own. But then, they probably wouldn't recognize freedom if they saw it. It probably shouldn't bother.

~Sternhauser
[/quote]


Perhaps you should look up the old debates of IronMonk on Iraq, he provided well documented proof from the UNITED NATIONS of all places that Iraq was shipping trucks into neighboring Nations.

[add]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='21 February 2010 - 07:11 PM' timestamp='1266793897' post='2060704']
[i]Boy[/i], does [i]that[/i] sound familiar. The United State [i]alone[/i] does 40% of the total world's military spending. [i]China[/i] does a mere 5.8%! Maybe the United State should invade itself and change the regime. The people don't seem to want to or be able to do it on their own. But then, they probably wouldn't recognize freedom if they saw it. It probably shouldn't bother.

~Sternhauser
[/quote]

the 3000 [b]people [/b][b]massacred in [/b][b]Tiananmen Square [/b] probably wouldn't recognize freedom if they saw it, because there dead

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='21 February 2010 - 06:39 PM' timestamp='1266795592' post='2060728']
Perhaps you should look up the old debates of IronMonk on Iraq, he provided well documented proof from the UNITED NATIONS of all places that Iraq was shipping trucks into neighboring Nations.
[/quote]

Does the State not have a right to transport or sell weapons to other States?

~Sternhauser

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='apparently' date='21 February 2010 - 06:46 PM' timestamp='1266795968' post='2060737']
the 3000 [b]people [/b][b]massacred in [/b][b]Tiananmen Square [/b] probably wouldn't recognize freedom if they saw it, because there dead
[/quote]

Why not invade China and pull a regime change?

~Sternhauser

[add]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='21 February 2010 - 08:01 PM' timestamp='1266796913' post='2060746']
Why not invade China and pull a regime change?

~Sternhauser
[/quote]

that's silly talk

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='apparently' date='21 February 2010 - 07:53 PM' timestamp='1266799993' post='2060764']
that's silly talk
[/quote]

So it was with Iraq.

~Sternhauser

[Ed Normile]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='21 February 2010 - 08:48 PM' timestamp='1266803335' post='2060792']
So it was with Iraq.

~Sternhauser
[/quote]


Stern you know I love you. You are like the old time computers, you process everything in black and white, unfortunately there are many shades of gray that can color any thing we can see.

ed

[ThePenciledOne]

[quote name='Ed Normile' date='21 February 2010 - 10:23 PM' timestamp='1266805429' post='2060822']
Stern you know I love you. You are like the old time computers, you process everything in black and white, unfortunately there are many shades of gray that can color any thing we can see.

ed
[/quote]

Ed, I have said this before, but in the end it is either Black or White, Hell or Heaven.

Stern sees things as they are and I try my best as well.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='ThePenciledOne' date='22 February 2010 - 02:29 PM' timestamp='1266809368' post='2060868']
Ed, I have said this before, but in the end it is either Black or White, Hell or Heaven.

Stern sees things as they are and I try my best as well.
[/quote]



The thief on the cross lived a life of sinfulness. Where did Jesus say he was going?
Unfortunately life is very complex and there will always be shades of grey that will test you. Only God has the ability to divide things into the black box or the white box. humans will often err and get it wrong.

[ThePenciledOne]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' date='21 February 2010 - 11:55 PM' timestamp='1266810937' post='2060891']


The thief on the cross lived a life of sinfulness. Where did Jesus say he was going?
Unfortunately life is very complex and there will always be shades of grey that will test you. Only God has the ability to divide things into the black box or the white box. humans will often err and get it wrong.
[/quote]

Which thief are you talking about?

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='21 February 2010 - 07:01 PM' timestamp='1266796862' post='2060744']
Does the State not have a right to transport or sell weapons to other States?

~Sternhauser
[/quote]

Would you not have us believe any State has no right to even exist? Anyway the point is Iraq did have WMD and shipped many of them out before the war began.

Edited February 22, 2010 by KnightofChrist

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='apparently' date='21 February 2010 - 07:53 PM' timestamp='1266799993' post='2060764']
that's silly talk
[/quote]

Of course it is because the army of China is much greater and much more powerful than the Iraqi army was at the time. This debate has been debated a thousand times here at Phatmass, and it's soooo old. Iraq had WMD's, Iraq was supporting Terrorism, Iraq was a threat to the United States and its interest. It was a threat that could be dissolved and so it was dissolved. Now the people of Iraq have the chance at least not to live under a dictatorship which is good.

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='21 February 2010 - 11:30 PM' timestamp='1266813021' post='2060932']
Would you not have us believe any State has no right to even exist? Anyway the point is Iraq did have WMD and shipped many of them out before the war began.
[/quote]

So does Israel. So does Russia. So does France. So does the United State. They do not pose an imminent threat, just like Iraq did not.

Knight, on a side note: do you think a Catholic can, in good conscience, serve on a nuclear submarine/missile boat with missiles aimed at civilian cities?

Seeing how the top military commanders don't even have the common moral sense to not target entire civilian cities with nuclear weapons, I find it astonishing that anyone could take their moral and prudential judgment seriously on any other issue.

~Sternhauser

Edited February 22, 2010 by Sternhauser

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Ed Normile' date='21 February 2010 - 09:23 PM' timestamp='1266805429' post='2060822']
Stern you know I love you. You are like the old time computers, you process everything in black and white, unfortunately there are many shades of gray that can color any thing we can see.

ed
[/quote]

Ed, there is only black and white when it comes to morality. Things may blur and cloud our vision, but the moral issues in and of themselves are black and white.

I think in hot and cold, because I don't want to think or act in lukewarm. If you have any reason to trust politicians and their motivations, you go on and support them.

And if there's a question of whether a big issue something being black and white in a big "political" issue, I'm going to have to go with the group of people who do not feel they have the right to force others to support their view monetarily while heckling and scorning them for dissenting. Every time.

~Sternhauser

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='ThePenciledOne' date='22 February 2010 - 02:57 PM' timestamp='1266811070' post='2060894']
Which thief are you talking about?
[/quote]

The one that Jesus said to "verily I say unto you, you will be with me in paradise this day." Men had judged this man as a hopeless sinner who deserved to die. So they lashed him to a cross next to Jesus. Jesus saw something else in this man. In the dying moments of his life a flame of compassion was burning in his soul for a man that he saw was innocent and did not deserved to be treated this way. He said that he himself was deserving of crucifixion. This was his purgatory? He said to Jesus "Remember me before your father"
This story never fails to bring a tear to my eye.... 'There is no sin of mine greater than your love for me, I can always start anew.'

[Ed Normile]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='22 February 2010 - 09:10 AM' timestamp='1266847826' post='2061118']
[b]Ed, there is only black and white when it comes to morality. Things may blur and cloud our vision, but the moral issues in and of themselves are black and white.

[/b]I think in hot and cold, because I don't want to think or act in lukewarm. If you have any reason to trust politicians and their motivations, you go on and support them.

And if there's a question of whether a big issue something being black and white in a big "political" issue, I'm going to have to go with the group of people who do not feel they have the right to force others to support their view monetarily while heckling and scorning them for dissenting. Every time.

~Sternhauser
[/quote]


Actually thank God this is totally untrue! If this were the case then Jesus would have condemned Mary magdalene as a Whore instead of forgiving her, the good thief would have burned in hell, countless saints who were womanizers, thiefs, soldiers, tax collectors, whores, coming from all the sinful walks of life would be burning in hell. If Jesus did not see the gray area in our worth we all would get the eternity we deserve instead of experiencing the infinite Divine Mercy of Christ. Thank you God that your Son is a little lukewarm when it comes to punishing our weaknesses!

ed

Edited February 23, 2010 by Ed Normile

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Ed Normile' date='22 February 2010 - 10:32 PM' timestamp='1266895941' post='2061608']
Actually thank God this is totally untrue! If this were the case then Jesus would have condemned Mary magdalene as a Whore instead of forgiving her, the good thief would have burned in hell, countless saints who were womanizers, thiefs, soldiers, tax collectors, whores, coming from all the sinful walks of life would be burning in hell. If Jesus did not see the gray area in our worth we all would get the eternity we deserve instead of experiencing the infinite Divine Mercy of Christ. Thank you God that your Son is a little lukewarm when it comes to punishing our weaknesses!

ed
[/quote]

Her sins were black as night. Just because someone has done evil doesn't make the sins "grey." Jesus never said her sins were in the "grey zone." He sees the good in us. He forgives the evil, but doesn't make the human mistake of saying, "Well, who can judge whether the action was good or evil?" We must acknowledge our actions [i]as[/i] evil before we can ever accept forgiveness. Forgiveness does not contradict the stark reality of distinct good and evil.

~Sternhauser

Edited February 23, 2010 by Sternhauser

[ThePenciledOne]

Forgiveness makes things white again.

I think some of you have are caught up with this a little or at least confused.

I mean, sin is sin, and you can't half way sin so its Black or White. I mean, come on, since we are human sure we like to operate and create shades of gray to make ourselves feel better, but in the end all there is, is Black and White.