Protestant artists "ripping off" the Catholic Mass

[Fides_et_Ratio]

When I worked at a Christian bookstore a few years ago, I really liked Shaun Groves "Invitation to Eavesdrop" CD. While browsing MySpace, I noticed he had a site and a new song on it-- one called "Amen". Part of which is taken from the Liturgy.

Naturally I visited his website, browsed around, and then searched the forum... where I ran across this posted by Shaun Groves himself:

[quote]THis won't shock you Nancy, but I have many alterior motives when writing music. My songs usually have one main point but the way I express that point may be an extra lesson in itself - often times only I know about these extra lessons. They're private messages often there just to remind me of something God was teaching me at the time I wrote the song.

This song's "CHrist have mercy, Lord have mercy" lines are that type of hidden lesson for me. I had just done an interview with some guys that felt very strongly that I and other "CHristian" artists should not associate or partner with Catholics.[b] I pointed out the vital role the Catholic Church has played through the history of music and art and their many contributions to the Protestant denominations [/b]and how so many Catholics I know believe Jesus si the Son of God and that only His mercy and grace saves us - not the works of man or the pronouncements or rituals of popes or priests. We had a good fight - a good polite exchange of ideas peppered with a little irritation on my part. I couldn't believe these two guys believed anyone who attended a Catholic Church was not a Christian and that the Catholic faith had no influence on my faith or theirs.

One of the things I said was that [b]my favorite piece of music of all times was the Pope Marcellus Mass by Palestrina [/b]- a piece of music from I believe the 15th Century. I remember sitting in music history class my first year at Baylor hearing this piece of music for the first time - having never heard a mass before - and fighting tears. I can't remember being so moved by a piece of music before then.

[b]That experience sparked my curiosity about the Catholic mass and I decided that one day I would write one[/b]. Well, I haven't done that yet but [b]this Amen song is a nod to a section of the Catholic mass. Catholics get a raw deal being stereotyped as the guilt laden religion. Truth is many evangelicals could learn a little something from their Catholic friends[/b]: shame. Shame drives us to mercy. It's the reminder that the flood waters are seeping in and the ship is going down. It makes us cling to the cross as Nancy eloquently said, instead of playing games with it. Yes, there is grace and salvation and hope, but sin and shame make those rays of light much brighter and more appreciated.

[b]So, I purposefully ripped off the Catholics [/b]- as Michael W. Smith did for his song - [b]as a small jab at those two journalists that there is some great theology mixed in with the stuff they don't agree with in the Catholic faith and as a tribute I guess to a beautiful contribution the Catholic mass has made to music history and to my understanding of the Christian life. [/b]
That's the deep answer as to why those lines are there but when writing a song there is also a practical reason why things end up as they are. If you're not interested in song writing you might want to skip the rest of this or risk dying of boredom.

The thing is I have a handicap as a writer: too many words. I know by my posts you'd never guess that I love using lots of words. Surprised aren't you? If you count words I use about twice as many as other folks on average. It's hard to fit my lyrics in the packaging. So my more "successful" songs - the ones radio plays or that people request over and over at concerts or the ones that the crowd sings with the easiest, are the ones with simple choruses that have some kind of repetitive quality to them. They are songs with lots of words but an element of repetition, simplicity or familiarity at the same time. This makes since because the whole reason choruses and verses and bridges evolved was because human beings need landmarks or structure in what they hear. They need form. So in a pop song every verse has the same melody and every chorus is the same lyrically AND melodically etc. This holds our attention. We get to the chorus the second time and we know it already. Our brain can stop thinking and start enjoying.

If you mess with this structure by making verse 2 less like verse 1 or making your chorus lyrics different from one another you risk losing your listener. The song feels free form and not like a pop song at all - it rambles. But I still like to mess with the pop song rules a little. On Amen I did this like I do with most songs, by having no similarity in the lyrics of the verses - (unlike a song like Jesus where every line begins the same way). AND I made two lines of every chorus change - the chorus is never the same.

But that causes a problem. Now the chorus isn't familiar and it SHOULD be because I want people to sing along and make this their prayer to God. So I made the first two lines and the last two lines of the Chorus very familiar church phrases. The first two - CHrist have mercy, Lord have mercy - are from the Catholic faith and the last two - Pass me not, forsake me not - from Protestant gospel roots (like the hymn Pass Me Not - one of my favorite). Now, the hope is that the chorus is anchored and made more familiar by the book ends of well-known phrases from the Church. And I hope those familiar phrases take on new meaning when sung with these new verses.

Make sense? Oh well. Me thinks too much.

SG[/quote]
( [url="http://www.shaungroves.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=7467&highlight=catholic#7467"]http://www.shaungroves.com/phpBB2/viewtopi...t=catholic#7467[/url] )

Aside from a few common misconceptions and jabs at Catholicism... he seems to be fairly open, honest, and downright charitable (for the most part) to Catholics. He even has a few posts on his blog about Augustine's "Just War" Theory--which, sadly I am not enough of an Augustine buff to even attempt dialogue outside of reading a few of St. Augustine's works.

... I just found this... interesting... to say the least. Why would a Protestant singer want to use the Catholic Mass--and more--to write his own Mass?? (I actually shudder at the thought, unless he intends to use soley forms of Gregorian Chant)

[sweetpea316]

Interesting... thanks for posting that. I never knew that he felt that way.

[zabbazooey]

That was OURS! They're stealing!

[Anastasia13]

What part did he steal?

He wants to write his own mass? I thought only a Catholic church service liturgy and eucharist would (and thus could) be Mass.

[quote name='zabbazooey' date='Aug 9 2005, 09:45 PM'] That was OURS! They're stealing!
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The Lutheran Church also stole a lot of your mass liturgy and put some of it to music. :

Edited August 10, 2005 by Light and Truth

[Era Might]

[quote] I thought only a Catholic church service liturgy and eucharist would (and thus could) be Mass.[/quote]

Well, he wants to write a CONCERT Mass. A concert Mass is just a piece of music until it's used in a Church. Then it becomes a liturgical act.

Edited August 10, 2005 by Era Might

[Anastasia13]

[quote name='Era Might' date='Aug 9 2005, 10:13 PM']Well, he wants to write a CONCERT Mass. A concert Mass is just a piece of music until it's used in a Church. Then it becomes a liturgical act.
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Then why did Fides_et_Ratio say this? [Bold added]

[quote name='Fides_et_Ratio' date='Aug 9 2005, 09:23 PM']   ... I just found this... interesting... to say the least. Why would a Protestant singer want to use the Catholic Mass--and more--to write his own Mass?? ([b]I actually shudder at the thought, unless he intends to use soley forms of Gregorian Chant[/b])[right][snapback]679481[/snapback][/right]
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[littleflower+JMJ]

I dont kow what to think.

this is weird.

[sweetpea316]

[quote name='Light and Truth' date='Aug 9 2005, 11:09 PM']The Lutheran Church also stole a lot of your mass liturgy and put some of it to music. :
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Yes...yes they did. But hey, at least now I'm familiar with more of it. Makes it easier for me now...