Peter not the rock?

[at0m1c]

Ok, this guys says that 'The Rock' does not refer to Peter, but actually it refers to the twelvefold foundation of the apostles of the church. (minus Judas, plus Paul)

He says that Jesus the chief cornerstone of the church, quoting from:

"And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;" Ephesians 2:20

Any takers?

[daugher-of-Mary]

What he says is partly true, but Jesus only gave the "keys of the kingdom" and the command to shepherd His flock to one of the Apostles.

[Jake Huether]

[quote]the twelvefold foundation of the apostles of the church. (minus Judas, plus Paul)[/quote]

Well there is a hickup already, because Matthias was chosen as to replace Judas.

But Jesus Himself says, "You are Peter and upon this Rock I will build my Church". In other words, "you are Rock and upon this Rock I will build my Church..." I don't see how you can interpret it differenty...

Paul isn't talking about how Jesus built His Church. Paul is talking post-construction. The foundation of God's Household being the Apostles and Prophets, and Jesus being the Cheif Cornerston. But the Church was built ON Peter! Peter, holding the keys to the Kingdom, is the Rock upon which Jesus built His Church.

God bless.

[thessalonian]

Protestants have such a hangup with inanimate objects i.e. rocks being men, as if they were God? I don't know of any rock that I would bow down and worship, no matter how large or immovable it was. But if they want an example of the Bible calling anyone but Jesus Rock, here is one for them:

Is 51
[1] "Hearken to me, you who pursue deliverance, you who seek the LORD;
look to the rock from which you were hewn,
and to the quarry from which you were digged.
[2] Look to Abraham your father
and to Sarah who bore you;
for when he was but one I called him,
and I blessed him and made him many.

[StColette]

You ever think that St. Peter is just sitting up there in Heaven shaking his head at some of the stuff Protestants come up with? lol

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='at0m1c' date='Aug 11 2005, 09:34 AM']Ok, this guys says that 'The Rock' does not refer to Peter, but actually it refers to the twelvefold foundation of the apostles of the church. (minus Judas, plus Paul)

He says that Jesus the chief cornerstone of the church, quoting from:

"And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;" Ephesians 2:20

Any takers?
[right][snapback]681751[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
well, first of all, eph 2:20 says that the mystical body of Christ is built upon the prophets as well as the apostles, so we have here more than just a "twelvefold foundation."

also, w/ this very simple statement paul is doing an amazing thing: he is uniting the old covenant (prophets) and the new covenant (apostles) in the one man Jesus Christ. afterall, as Paul says, it is in Him that "the whole structure us joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord" (Eph 2:21). He is the One Word of God that gives meaning to everything that anyone has ever done to bring people closer to the Lord. their work applies the merits of his work, so that we can all be "built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit" (Eph 2:22).

so, i don't see this verse from ephesians being about who's in authority and who's not. its more about unique individuals paving the way for us to be united to the One Body of Christ, and their work finding its source and foundation in Him.

also, affirming that peter is the rock does not discredit the authority of the remaining apostles. afterall, they are all given the authority to bind and loose, peter in Mat 16:19 and the rest in Mat 18:18. what this rock statement means is that, of those in authority, peter is chief among them. lest their be any doubt of this, we note that only peter is given the keys and that, after His resurrection, Jesus asks peter to shepherd his fellow apostles, and lead them in governing the church (cf [url="http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=John+21%3A15-19§ion=0&version=rsv&new=1&oq=&NavBook=joh&NavGo=21&NavCurrentChapter=21"][b]John 21:15-19[/b][/url])

so, the two verses--Matt 16:18 and Eph 2:20--are not contradictory

pax christi,
phatcatholic

Edited August 12, 2005 by phatcatholic

[Technicoid]

[quote name='phatcatholic' date='Aug 11 2005, 07:28 PM']also, w/ this very simple statement paul is doing an amazing thing: he is uniting the old covenant (prophets) and the new covenant (apostles) in the one man Jesus Christ. afterall, as Paul says, it is in Him that "the whole structure us joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord" (Eph 2:21). He is the One Word of God that gives meaning to everything that anyone has ever done to bring people closer to the Lord. their work applies the merits of his work, so that we can all be "built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit" (Eph 2:22). [/quote]

Hey, that sounds like support for TRADITION.

[Anastasia13]

[quote name='thessalonian' date='Aug 11 2005, 11:04 AM']Protestants have such a hangup with inanimate objects i.e. rocks being men, as if they were God?  I don't know of any rock that I would bow down and worship, no matter how large or immovable it was.  But if they want an example of the Bible calling anyone but Jesus Rock, here is one for them:

Is 51
[1] "Hearken to me, you who pursue deliverance, you who seek the LORD;
look to the rock from which you were hewn,
and to the quarry from which you were digged.
[2] Look to Abraham your father
and to Sarah who bore you;
for when he was but one I called him,
and I blessed him and made him many.
[right][snapback]681972[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
Ok, here is the Protestant take in it. Imagine the church for a moment like a building. I know this seems like an odd start, but that is what corner stones were used for. We are all like rocks being used to build God's church, but Jesus is the stone on which this church is built. In the verse where Jesus says to Peter you are Peter and on this rock I will build my church, it's like saying you are a rock (points to Peter) and one this rock (points to Himself) I will build my church. Now we get that view also from Ephesians 2:20 where Jesus is the corner stone. The corner stone is a very key foundation peice of the church. If you have a bad foundation for a building, then no matter how well you build it, it won't last. It was on Jesus that the church then had to be built. Peter and the apostles as the final pieces of the foundation, and even us today from that, are like rocks used to build up the church from Christ.

Edited August 14, 2005 by Light and Truth

[Technicoid]

[quote name='Light and Truth' date='Aug 14 2005, 02:52 PM']Ok, here is the Protestant take in it.  Imagine the church for a moment like a building.  I know this seems like an odd start, but that is what corner stones were used for.  We are all like rocks being used to build God's church, but Jesus is the stone on which this church is built.  In the verse where Jesus says to Peter you are Peter and on this rock I will build my church, it's like saying you are a rock (points to Peter) and one this rock (points to Himself) I will build my church.  Now we get that view also from Ephesians 2:20 where Jesus is the corner stone.  The corner stone is a very key foundation peice of the church.  If you have a bad foundation for a building, then no matter how well you build it, it won't last.  It was on Jesus that the church then had to be built.  Peter and the apostles as the final pieces of the foundation, and even us today from that, are like rocks used to build up the church from Christ.[/quote]

That works fine if you ignore the grammar in context and assume that Christ is gesturing to Himself. First, when we use demonstratives (this, that), we are either referring to a thing to which we had previously referred, or to something that everyone recognizes as being the thing to which we're referring. If Christ calls Peter the Rock, then His next utterance can only refer to Peter unless we have reason to believe that Christ is referring to something else. Given that He is praising Peter in the first clause, we have no reason to think that His calling Peter the Rock is denigration, hence no reason to accept that Christ is referring to Himself.

Second, if you look at the Greek, the use of articles simply doesn't allow the interpretation. The second reference to rock clearly pairs up with the first, Protestant interpretation not withstanding. The Greek article/demonstartive in the second case can only refer to the first reference to "rock."

There's no use of the metaphor of cornerstone here. To implant it here simply isn't legitimate.

[White Knight]

Well if you think about it, Jesus did say. in Matthew 16 that Peter was the Rock that He was going to build His Church on. Jesus also refers to the Rock as the living foundation which we sould also live on. This means, basically build your life on Jesus and you'll be safe for the storms.

There are many references in scripture to the word Rock, alot of the time its easy and hard to understand what the actual meaning is without getting it wrong.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

The foundation and the cornerstone are two separate things in construction.

The foundation is the establishment upon which something is built. The prophets and apostles are clearly given this place in the quote. The cornerstone is the first stone layed in a construction project, the one upon which the other stones are built. The difference is subtle, but the former provides a structural framework for a project while the latter is the ceremonial and practical first step. While a project is built on a foundation, the cornerstone is necessary so that the builders can build from there, rather than laying one stone over here, another over there, and ending up with a chaotic mess of bricks.

So we see that the prophets and the apostles are meant to be the structure upon which the Church is built. That is...the Church is built on them. However, the cornerstone provides direction and orientation to the building, as a starting place. Thus the Church is built on the prophets and the apostles, but build around Christ, oriented around Him and radiating from Him.

Now, if the apostles are the foundation, the rock upon which the Church is built, then this is not at all in conflict with Petrine Primacy. All apostles are brothers with the same level of ordination...they are all bishops. The only difference is that the pope is the sort of elder brother of them all.

You could say that each apostle is a foundation, or that all of them are together, because this is a metaphor afterall, but this does not conflict that the successor of Peter is the foundation rock in the foremost sense, that he is the foundation in a more complete sense.

And finally, to state my credentials, and to allude to a scene from My Cousin Vinnie...my grandfather was a construction owner, my greatgrandfather was a construction owner, my great uncle was a construction owner, my uncle is a construction manager, my godfather is a contractor...