Hans Urs von Balthasar

[Nathan]

I've been reading the 20th century Swiss Jesuit theologian Hans Urs von Balthasar lately -- specifically, his works [i]Our Task[/i] and [i]Life Is Symphonic[/i]. I'm really enjoying him; his theology is very spiritual and deep and warm. He is also quite orthodox, I would say even moreso than Karl Rahner.

Anyone familiar with von Balthasar? Title suggestions?

[phatcatholic]

hehe, DEFINITELY more orthodox than Karl Rahner!!! :

[p0lar_bear]

[quote name='phatcatholic' date='Aug 11 2005, 09:31 PM']hehe, DEFINITELY more orthodox than Karl Rahner!!! :
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That's not saying much....



Von Balthasar, De Lubac, and a few others broke with Rahner and formed [i]Communio[/i] when he and Kung (and others) started going wrong.

I haven't read much of him myself, but I know someone who is a big fan....I'll ask him.

[Fides_et_Ratio]

Dude, Balthasar is AMAZING. I love him. He's right up there with Chesterton and the like.

My favorite Balthasar works:
Prayer
Love Alone is Credible
Mary for Today

Basically, anything of his is great! He's an awesome philosopher and theologian.

[Guest mom*4*life]

Some of his teaching I believe strays in to almost universalism where there ends up being nobody in hell, basically because the threats in the Bible convince everyone to shape up in part. I have not read him but have heard this is what he taught. It's not quite the same as universalism but the result ends up being the same. He basically says it is okay to believe that noone ends up in hell because God gives all sufficient grace to go to heaven and also the Church does not say that any individual is in hell so we can, without being in error, say that none are.

Excuse me. I see my wife has been on here and left herself signed on. This was written by Thessalonian

Edited August 12, 2005 by mom*4*life

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='mom*4*life' date='Aug 11 2005, 11:17 PM']Some of his teaching I believe strays in to almost universalism where there ends up being nobody in hell, basically because the threats in the Bible convince everyone to shape up in part.  I have not read him but have heard this is what he taught. It's not quite the same as universalism but the result ends up being the same.  He basically says it is okay to believe that noone ends up in hell because God gives all sufficient grace to go to heaven and also the Church does not say that any individual is in hell so we can, without being in error, say that none are.

Excuse me.  I see my wife has been on here and left herself signed on.  This was written by Thessalonian
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Well hey, you gave her her first post. And that's... interesting...

[p0lar_bear]

[quote name='mom*4*life' date='Aug 12 2005, 01:17 AM']Some of his teaching I believe strays in to almost universalism where there ends up being nobody in hell, basically because the threats in the Bible convince everyone to shape up in part.  I have not read him but have heard this is what he taught. It's not quite the same as universalism but the result ends up being the same.  He basically says it is okay to believe that noone ends up in hell because God gives all sufficient grace to go to heaven and also the Church does not say that any individual is in hell so we can, without being in error, say that none are.

Excuse me.  I see my wife has been on here and left herself signed on.  This was written by Thessalonian
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The work is called "Dare we hope that all might be saved."

It wasn't so much about salvation as the virtue of hope...he never denied the reality of hell or the possibility of going there, he just maintained that we could, and maybe should, have hope that God's will that "all might be saved" will be fulfilled.

The Church definitively declares that certain people (the saints) are in heaven. She has not, however, definitively declared that any particular person is in hell. If we cannot say that any specific person is in hell, Von Balthasar reasons, we cannot say definitively that there is in fact anyone in hell. If we are allowed to hope that any given individual is in heaven, we can hope that every individual is in heaven. By generalizing what the Church holds regarding individuals, Von Balthasar sees clear to hope that all men will indeed find their way to the beatific vision.

It's more involved than that, but I don't have the book with me and it's been a couple of years since I read it.

[Fides_et_Ratio]

interesting.

thanks for the book title, p0lar! I will have to check it out (thessalonian's post made me a bit nervous... I love Balthasar! Everything of his that I've read has been great thus far)

[phatcatholic]

that is interesting. i've never read anything about that type of "hope" before. hmm........

[DeeDee]

You might be interested in the book Ethical Thought of Hans Urs von Balthasar by Christopher Steck, S.J. He does a nice job of touching on von Balthazar's main theses, and weaves in some of Karl Rahner and St. Ignatius as well. Great book, with tons of footnotes.

[Cure of Ars]

Here is some of his tuff that is online. '

[url="http://www.ratzingerfanclub.com/Balthasar/"]http://www.ratzingerfanclub.com/Balthasar/[/url]

[Cure of Ars]

This quote is interesting;


“Jesus has no need of apologetics [of the conventional sort]: he shines through. He shines upon everyone who comes into the world (Jn 1:9) and does not deliberately look away. The Church should not pursue any apologetics for herself, but should instead endeavor to make her Lord visible; and since the Church joins the gospel so closely to Jesus, she will succeed in this endeavor only by striving to reach the point where she will herself shine through.” (Hans Urs von Balthasar, New Elucidations)



I got the quote from here

[url="http://www.quodlibet.net/vansteenwyk-holiness.shtml#_edn40"]http://www.quodlibet.net/vansteenwyk-holiness.shtml#_edn40[/url]

I

[thessalonian]

[quote name='Fides_et_Ratio' date='Aug 12 2005, 07:16 AM']interesting.

thanks for the book title, p0lar! I will have to check it out (thessalonian's post made me a bit nervous... I love Balthasar! Everything of his that I've read has been great thus far)
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I did not mean to make it sound like he was a heretic as I have never heard anyone say that. None of his books are condemned as some of rahners are. Further, the explanation above was consistent with what I have heard. However the difficulty is that as with Once Saved Always Saved, it does end up making some of God's warnings in scripture about straying from the faith sound like bluffs. Yes, hope that all are going to heaven, but pray as if all are going to hell is my attitude.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='p0lar_bear' date='Aug 12 2005, 08:14 AM']The work is called "Dare we hope that all might be saved."

It wasn't so much about salvation as the virtue of hope...he never denied the reality of hell or the possibility of going there, he just maintained that we could, and maybe should, have hope that God's will that "all might be saved" will be fulfilled.

The Church definitively declares that certain people (the saints) are in heaven.  She has not, however, definitively declared that any particular person is in hell.  If we cannot say that any specific person is in hell, Von Balthasar reasons, we cannot say definitively that there is in fact anyone in hell.  If we are allowed to hope that any given individual is in heaven, we can hope that every individual is in heaven.  By generalizing what the Church holds regarding individuals, Von Balthasar sees clear to hope that all men will indeed find their way to the beatific vision.

It's more involved than that, but I don't have the book with me and it's been a couple of years since I read it.
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Interesting theory but conflicts with what so many of the saints have said : hell is a well populated region.

Hell is paved with priests' skulls.
- St. John Chrysostom

Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the cheif ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.

Isaiah 14:9

Edited August 13, 2005 by cmotherofpirl

[journeyman]

[quote name='thessalonian' date='Aug 13 2005, 01:12 PM']<snip>
  hope that all are going to heaven, but pray as if all are going to hell
<snip>
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There's a statement I can live by

[p0lar_bear]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Aug 13 2005, 03:23 PM']Interesting theory but conflicts with what so many of the saints have said : hell is a  well populated region.

Hell is paved with priests' skulls.
      - St. John Chrysostom

Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the cheif ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.

Isaiah 14:9
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True, but that is private revelation, not part of the deposit of faith. I'm not saying I necessarily agree with Von Balthasar, but saints visions don't preclude his explanation.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='p0lar_bear' date='Aug 13 2005, 04:35 PM']True, but that is private revelation, not part of the deposit of faith. I'm not saying I necessarily agree with Von Balthasar, but saints visions don't preclude his explanation.
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Yes but they are Saints, and what they say can never be contrary to church teaching.
and he is a theologian :

[p0lar_bear]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Aug 13 2005, 09:27 PM']Yes but they are Saints, and what they say can never be contrary to church teaching.
and he is a theologian :
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If it is not part of revealed teaching, faithful Catholics can disagree. Since the Church has never definitively declared that anyone is in hell, differences of opinion on this are not determining points for orthodoxy.


Saints have often said things that are not believed today. Jerome criticized the thought of a virgin bathing, in part because pregnant women were revolting....Augustine said that sex within marriage was almost invariably sinful. ...Hildegard of Bingen maintained that the phases of the moon at the time of conception determined the gender and character of the child...Aquinas argued against Immaculate Conception...

[morostheos]

I love von Balthasar!!! : Right now I'm using "The Heart of the World" as a meditation book, it is sooooo good! It's more poetical and less intellectual than most of his other works, which makes it very good for prayer.

[Era Might]

John Paul II comments in "Crossing the Threshold of Hope":

[quote]The problem of hell has always disturbed great thinkers in the Church, beginning with Origen and continuing in our time with Sergey Bulgakov and Hans Urs von Balthasar. In point of fact, the ancient councils rejected the theory of the "final apocatastasis," according to which the world would be regenerated after destruction, and every creature would be saved; a theory which indirectly abolished hell. But the problem remains. Can God, who has loved man so much, permit the man who rejects Him to be condemned to eternal torment? And yet, the words of Christ are unequivocal. In Matthew's Gospel He speaks clearly of those who will go to eternal punishment (cf. Mt 25:46). Who will these be? The Church has never made any pronouncement in this regard. This is a mystery, truly inscrutable, which embraces the holiness of God and the conscience of man. The silence of the Church is, therefore, the only appropriate position for Christian faith. Even when Jesus says of Judas, the traitor, "It would be better for that man if he had never been born" (Mt 26:24), His words do not allude for certain to eternal damnation.[/quote]

Edited August 15, 2005 by Era Might