I have what is likely a stupid question

[prose]

Okay, I understand the "right to do what she wants with her body" argument (not good, but I get it), but how do pro-choice advocates justify that a fetus is not a baby?

Is there a cut-off of time?

Is there a common agreement?

I am guessing there must be SOME sort of agreement as to when life is life.

[zwergel88]

I never get their arguments either, many people seem to say that any baby that is unborn is not really a baby or something, but what about babies who are born early. Are they not human, until a certain point. I have also heard people say that a fetus is not human, because it is dependent on it's mother for everything, but what about a baby that is already born. It can't do anything for itself. Should a mother just be able to kill her baby at will.

Pro-choice arguments just don't make sense!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[zabbazooey]

I just don't understand why someone would kill a helpless human being!

[Didacus]

Their argumentation is aimed towards justifying their 'choice', not on logic as such.

One anti-lifer once told me that as long as the embilical cord is not cut, the baby is not human.

Such silliness, but these people believe in it to a certain extent and believe this excuses their daily practice of murder.

Sad world... sad world...

[ofpheritup]

[quote name='prose' date='Aug 15 2005, 12:23 PM']Okay, I understand the "right to do what she wants with her body" argument (not good, but I get it),

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When someone gives me the "it's my right to do what I want to do with my body." argument. I ask them to show me their receipt. I ask them how much did they pay for their body? Where did they get their body? etc.

The point being "it isn't their body." Our bodies belong to God. They are in effect "rentals" and the One who paid the price for them is Jesus.

When I have an opportunity to bring up the "receipt question" I show people the crucifix I wear and say THIS IS HIS RECEIPT. It is not my body it belongs to Jesus. I am answerable to Him for how I use it.

Please consider using this as a lot of people have come back to thank me for making them think about it.

[Lil Red]

i have actually heard that a lot of pro-choice people nowadays agree that the baby is a human being, just that the mother's rights trump the baby's.

[Sarah_JC]

Pro choice arguments don't have to make sence. They're based on emotions. Look at their "examples", they'll always bring in rape, incest or something upsetting. They want you to focus on emotions, because they don't have a philisophical leg to stand on.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Lil Red' date='Aug 15 2005, 03:04 PM']i have actually heard that a lot of pro-choice people nowadays agree that the baby is a human being, just that the mother's rights trump the baby's.
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There is a professor at one of the Ivy League schools who was given tenure after making a speech saying that killing an infant (after birth, that is) is not to be opposed as much as killing an adult. His phrasing included, "killing an infant can never be compared with killing a human being."

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='Raphael' date='Aug 15 2005, 05:09 PM']There is a professor at one of the Ivy League schools who was given tenure after making a speech saying that killing an infant (after birth, that is) is not to be opposed as much as killing an adult.  His phrasing included, "killing an infant can never be compared with killing a human being."
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I believe that's Peter Singer, professor of ethics at Princeton.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' date='Aug 15 2005, 06:12 PM']I believe that's Peter Singer, professor of ethics at Princeton.
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Yep, that's the one.

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='Raphael' date='Aug 15 2005, 05:14 PM']Yep, that's the one.
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He makes me ill...

[Old_Joe]

What really irks me is how little value is placed on little ones. I work at a restaurant as a greeter and there are several of my coworkers who are like this. For example: I was seating a table of 4 (2 parents, a toddler, and a baby), and I written on the board 4 @ whatever time they were sat. The server corrected me saying that I should've written 3 or 3 1/2. When I asked why, she said that the baby doesn't count. (pray for her and the rest of my coworkers). I try to lead by example, and I try to defend what's right as much as I can. don't get me wrong there are some good people there too. I need to buy a green scapular have it blessed and hide it somewhere at work.

[Old_Joe]

[quote name='Sarah_JC' date='Aug 15 2005, 05:00 PM']Pro choice arguments don't have to make sence. They're based on emotions. Look at their "examples", they'll always bring in rape, incest or something upsetting. They want you to focus on emotions, because they don't have a philisophical leg to stand on.
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not only that but their arguments are entirely based on circumstance. It's entirely subjective. There's no objective moral foundation for their arguments.

[ofpheritup]

[quote name='Old_Joe' date='Aug 15 2005, 06:49 PM'] I need to buy a green scapular have it blessed and hide it somewhere at work.
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GREAT IDEA and a St. Benedict's medal.

[Didacus]

[quote name='Raphael' date='Aug 15 2005, 05:09 PM']There is a professor at one of the Ivy League schools who was given tenure after making a speech saying that killing an infant (after birth, that is) is not to be opposed as much as killing an adult.  His phrasing included, "killing an infant can never be compared with killing a human being."
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There is nothing that can be measured by anti-lifer's way of thinking.

Hence if an unborn child is not human, who is to say that a one year old is human, or a two year old? How about a teenager, you can make some pretty good arguments against thems being human. If there is no firm line to be respected, the line WILL be pushed eventually.

though this is arguably a fallacy, I see too many examples in history and in experience to just brush off this line of thinking. The missing element is a clear and undeniable distinction between right and wrong which anti-lifers clearly lack. 9but that Catholics clearly have: from CONCEPTION to NATURAL DEATH. No room for misunderstanding there, clear cut, precise, undeniable)

[ofpheritup]

[quote name='Didacus' date='Aug 17 2005, 06:48 AM']There is nothing that can be measured by anti-lifer's way of thinking. 

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THEY THINK ?

We have heard all the opinions, stories and arguments from these people. And we know that trying to convince them is pointless.

When I get involved in a conversation I don't try to change the person's mind (they got one ). I leave them with a thought.

This is my thought. GOD AT SOME POINT CREATED THIS LIFE AND SENT IT FORTH. HE CHOSE TO HAVE THIS PERSON EXIST. HE CHOSE, HE SAID YES, HE WANTED IT, HE DECREED THIS WAS TO BE.
(the next part is sarcasm (sort of) DO YOU FIRST OF ALL WANT TO TELL THE MAN HOW TO DO HIS JOB, DO YOU WANT TO TELL HIM NO? I DARE YOU TO LOOK GOD IN THE FACE AND TELL HIM YOU KNOW BETTER THAN HE DOES.

It boils down to that, God is God we are not, we do not tell Him how to do His job. You can try, it ain't gonna' work but you can try. :

Pro-death people have all the answers but not to that one. I have yet to meet anyone that can come up with an answer to that.

Personally the "I have to have an abortion because I was raped whining" has gotten on my nerves.

I was raped and became pregnant as a result. I was planning on giving the BABY up for adoption. Didn't happen I had a miscarriage caused by the guy who raped me (long story).

[Socrates]

"Pro-choice" arguments are usually based on stubborn denial of the facts. And usually when they're forced to admit that the unborn child is a human being, they'll say that it is human, but not yet a "person" with a right to life.
Human life has no intrinsic sacredness for the pro-death people. The right to life is seen as something that is simply given or taken away by law.

[philothea]

In my experience, most vocal pro-choice advocates do not believe in God. Their primary attachment to legal abortion is to retain a percieved equality between the genders.

Men and women can both have sex, but only women get pregnant. Allowing women to terminate pregnancy allows them the same ability to have sex without physical consquences that men have.

Additionally, they will say that they are the sole master of their bodies, and no other entity has the unlimited right to take and posess their bodies' resources.

If you want them to believe abortion is wrong, you will have to convince them of the existence of God first, or at least the existence of an objective morality.

[avemaria40]

as a former embryo, former fetus, and as a girl, i oppose abortion. and dpro choicers go on about us being violent, they should see planned parenthood's video about drowning abstinence speakers and blowing up peaceful prolifers, and compare it to Nick Cannon's video Can I Live? Also, the pro choice ppl i know say that it's wrong to legislate morality. Well if that's the case, then it's ok to murder each other since that's a case of morality :sarcasm:

Edited August 18, 2005 by avemaria40

[philothea]

(Re-reading the actual question... oops.)

Most pro-choice advocates don't seem to address the issue of life at all. When it is living on its own, a human being has individual rights. Until then, not.

I have never once heard a pro-choice person talk about when life begins. It's not an issue they cover.