Seems like trads have a problem

[thessalonian]

I see Less has hijacked my thread. People don't feed the Lester. Edited August 19, 2005 by thessalonian

[LittleLes]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Aug 19 2005, 02:31 PM']Boniface is not saying that anything other than original or mortal sin sends one to hell.  In describing a positive affirmation of what is absolutely necessary for salvation, he is defining a form of mortal sin (refusing to be subject to the Roman Pontiff) for which those conditions of mortal sin must be met for one to be culpable and thus damned.

I[/quote]

RESPONSE:

No. Boniface is saying that it is absolutely essential for salavation that every human being be subject to the Roman Pontiff.

Vatican II tells us, for example, that a Jew who lives his life in accordance with what he considers to be true can ,and probably will, be saved.

The plain meaning of Bonfice's word are that the same Jew, who is not subject to the Pope, cannot be saved.

Understand the difference? Mortal sin is not a factor. Subjection to the Pontiff is.

[brendan1104]

I definitely think that anyone who refuses to accept Christ as God, as well as the one true Church, the Catholic Church will not be saved.

Edited August 19, 2005 by brendan1104

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

LittleLes, are you familiar with the entire Unam Sanctum document? Or just the last sentence?

[LittleLes]

[quote name='thedude' date='Aug 19 2005, 08:01 PM']LittleLes, are you familiar with the entire Unam Sanctum document?  Or just the last sentence?
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RESPONE:

Yep; the whole thing and the history. It was one of the ultimate assertions of papal authority. And the last sentence is still on the books.

But Vatican II put it aside as was demonstrated.

[son_of_angels]

When Pope Boniface VIII said "it is absolutely necessary for salvation that all people submit to the Roman Pontiff" it is like saying "it is absolutely necessary for salvation that you do not cheat on your wife." Both are true, both fit the requirements for mortal sin. If you break them, HOLY carp, you just committed a mortal sin (as opposed to JUST a little mortal sin, as seems to be today's language). Yet it is subject to the same requirements as the others.

[LittleLes]

[quote name='son_of_angels' date='Aug 20 2005, 12:50 PM']When Pope Boniface VIII said "it is absolutely necessary for salvation that all people submit to the Roman Pontiff" it is like saying "it is absolutely necessary for salvation that you do not cheat on your wife."  Both are true, both fit the requirements for mortal sin.  If you break them, HOLY carp, you just committed a mortal sin (as opposed to JUST a little mortal sin, as seems to be today's language).  Yet it is subject to the same requirements as the others.
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RESPONSE:

So you think its a mortal sin not to always obey the Pope, eh?

Pope Innocent III c 1200

"Every cleric must obey the pope, even if he commands what is evil; for no one may judge the pope."

Pope Innocent IV , Ad Extirpanda, 1252

"The ruler is hereby ordered to force all captured heretics to confess and accuse their accomplices by torture....."

And its a mortal sin if a Catholic disobeys the pope in either of these, is that what you are trying to argue??

All "orthodox" Catholics must obey or go to hell ?????

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='brendan1104' date='Aug 19 2005, 04:12 PM']I definitely think that anyone who refuses to accept Christ as God, as well as the one true Church, the Catholic Church will not be saved.
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[/quote]
I agree. If they willfully reject Christ and His Church, when presented with it. But you cannot necesarily include those who have not been taught about Christ or his Church, or have no idea about these things, because it is not by their fault that they do not know.

[Aloysius]

submiting to the pope is not the same as obeying every temporal prudential judgement of the pope.

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

[quote name='LittleLes' date='Aug 20 2005, 01:46 PM']RESPONE:

Yep;  the whole thing and the history. It was one of the ultimate assertions of papal authority. And the last sentence is still on the books.

But Vatican II put it aside as was demonstrated.
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[/quote]
Obviously you [i]aren't[/i].

[LittleLes]

[quote name='brendan1104' date='Aug 19 2005, 04:12 PM']I definitely think that anyone who refuses to accept Christ as God, as well as the one true Church, the Catholic Church will not be saved.
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Hi Brendan,

I'm afraid your belief, while in keeping with the older party line, is no longer being taught by the Catholic Church

From the Documents of Vatican II, there is this:


"Nor shall divine providence deny the assistance necessary for salvation to those who, without any fault of theirs, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God, and who, not without grace, strive to lead a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is considered by the Church to be a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life." [from Constitution on the Church, 16]

So even atheists and agnostics, if they are true to their consciences, are not to be denied salvation.

Unam Sanctum and the Council of Florence have come and gone. "The Times, They Are A'Changing."

LittleLes

Now back to something really interesting on BeliefNet's Catholic Debate Forum!

[Noel's angel]

LittleLes I think you will find that it says ' without any fault of theirs' not 'who refuses to accept'. There is a difference between refusing to accept Christ as God and, through no fault of your own, not knowing that Christ is God

[Paladin D]

[quote name='Noel's angel' date='Aug 21 2005, 10:45 AM']LittleLes I think you will find that it says ' without any fault of theirs' not 'who refuses to accept'.  There is a difference between refusing to accept Christ as God and, through no fault of your own, not knowing that Christ is God
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[/quote]

He doesn't understand the difference.

[Noel's angel]

poor chap

[journeyman]

[quote name='LittleLes' date='Aug 20 2005, 06:57 PM']RESPONSE:

<snip>

Pope Innocent IV ,  Ad Extirpanda, 1252

"The ruler is hereby ordered to force all captured heretics to confess and accuse their accomplices by torture....."

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[/quote]


the conclusion is in the command

are they heretics because they are captured
or
are they captured because they are heretics

?

[LittleLes]

[quote name='Noel's angel' date='Aug 21 2005, 09:45 AM']LittleLes I think you will find that it says ' without any fault of theirs' not 'who refuses to accept'.  There is a difference between refusing to accept Christ as God and, through no fault of your own, not knowing that Christ is God
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[/quote]


RESPONSE:

I think you will find that there are a fair number of athiests and agnostics who know the claims that Christ is divine, but "without any fault of their own" in good conscience, do not accept this claim.

And, of course, they are not subject to the Roman Pontiff (see Unam Sanctum). Still, according to Vatican II, if they are true to their consciences, they can be saved.

And the Bull Cantate Domino:

"It firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart "into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels" [Matt. 25:41], unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church. "

So these, obviously not "in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church" can now according to Vatican II's teaching, nonetheless, be saved.

In the final analysis, despite the earlier papal and councilar teachings, it is the individual conscience which is governing.

LittleLes