Questions On Baptist Distinctives

[hyperdulia again]

baptists re-baptize people.

[ReformationNow]

baptists re-baptize people.

Could you be more specific in what you mean?

[hyperdulia again]

they re-baptize people who were originally baptixed in othher christiand denominations and (at least some churches) re-baptize people who thought that their first baptism wasn't part of a real salvation experience.

[ReformationNow]

they re-baptize people who were originally baptixed in othher christiand denominations and (at least some churches) re-baptize people who thought that their first baptism wasn't part of a real salvation experience.

The word for baptize in scripture means 'to immerse'. Baptists(and myself) believe that scriptural baptism is Immersion.

Baptists do not baptize people because 'they don't beleve baptism was part of their first salvation experience.' They will re-baptize people who 'get saved', even if they were baptized before. Why? Because some people make a false profession of faith(in other words, they claim to be saved and believe in Jesus Christ when they really don't), and get baptized, but later come to repentance, and receive true salvation. For this reason they are rebaptized.

[hyperdulia again]

they also re-baptise people who were baptised after "getting saved", but then discovered that their first salvation experience was fake ( which is what i was trying to say in the earlier post, but it came out garbled). anyhoo regardless of what you believe if someone was baptised with water in the name of the father the son and the holy spirit it was valid.

immersion only is silly.

[ironmonk]

John 20

23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

I don't know, but that doesn't mean you're right. I'll have to read more up on it. It doesn't sound like to me that Christ is giving the Apostles the specific power judge and either cleanse someone of their sins or beaver dam them to hell. I think other verses tell us that is left to God alone

Men are not judging others.

The Catholic Church IS right. Just because you don't like it, does not mean it's not true. You don't know, nor will any other protestant...

Christ DID give the power to forgive sins to the New Church.

From the Catechism:

http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt2sect2chpt2.htm

Only God forgives sin

1441

Only God forgives sins.39 Since he is the Son of God, Jesus says of himself, "The Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins" and exercises this divine power: "Your sins are forgiven."40 Further, by virtue of his divine authority he gives this power to men to exercise in his name.41

1442

Christ has willed that in her prayer and life and action his whole Church should be the sign and instrument of the forgiveness and reconciliation that he acquired for us at the price of his blood. But he entrusted the exercise of the power of absolution to the apostolic ministry which he charged with the "ministry of reconciliation."42 The apostle is sent out "on behalf of Christ" with "God making his appeal" through him and pleading: "Be reconciled to God."43

39: Cf. Mk 2:7.

40: Mk 2:5, 10; Lk 7:48.

41: Cf. Jn 20:21-23.

42: 2 Cor 5:18.

43: 2 Cor 5:20.

St. Matt 28:18 Then Jesus approached and said to them, "All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit,

20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age."

If Christ is always with the Church, the Church CANNOT be wrong.

Matt. 18:18

"Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven"

Luke 10:16 "He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me"

You take a big risk in your stance. The only logical answer infront of you that you know inside is true is given by the Catholic Church, and because it comes from the Catholic Church you cannot accept it because of the lies that have been put into your head... or God has not chosen you - yet, hopfully one day He will open your heart. Right now your heart is blinded.

St John 20:21

(Jesus) said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you."

22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit.

23 Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained."

"As the Father has sent Jesus, Jesus sends His Disciples"... Why did the Father send Jesus?.... To forgive us our sins. I also see that in verse 23, pretty clearly.

St James 5:14

Is anyone among you sick? He should summon the presbyters of the church, and they should pray over him and anoint (him) with oil in the name of the Lord,

15 and the prayer of faith will save the sick person, and the Lord will raise him up. If he has committed any sins, he will be forgiven.

16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The fervent prayer of a righteous person is very powerful.

Presbyters....aka...Priests....

Acts 19:18

And many that believed came, and confessed, and shewed their deeds.

1 Tim 6:12 Compete well for the faith. Lay hold of eternal life, to which you were called when you made the noble confession in the presence of many witnesses.

1 John 1:8

If we say, "We are without sin," we deceive ourselves, 3and the truth is not in us.

9 If we acknowledge our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from every wrongdoing.

10 If we say, "We have not sinned," we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

The Didache - Teachings of the 12 Apostles.

"Confess your sins in church, and do not go up to your prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of life. . . . On the Lord’s Day gather together, break bread, and give thanks, after confessing your transgressions so that your sacrifice may be pure" (Didache 4:14, 14:1 [A.D. 70]).

The Letter of Barnabas

"You shall judge righteously. You shall not make a schism, but you shall pacify those that contend by bringing them together. You shall confess your sins. You shall not go to prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of light" (Letter of Barnabas 19 [A.D. 74]).

Ignatius of Antioch

"For as many as are of God and of Jesus Christ are also with the bishop. And as many as shall, in the exercise of penance, return into the unity of the Church, these, too, shall belong to God, that they may live according to Jesus Christ" (Letter to the Philadelphians 3 [A.D. 110]).

"For where there is division and wrath, God does not dwell. To all them that repent, the Lord grants forgiveness, if they turn in penitence to the unity of God, and to communion with the bishop" (ibid., 8).

Irenaeus

"[The Gnostic disciples of Marcus] have deluded many women. . . . Their consciences have been branded as with a hot iron. Some of these women make a public confession, but others are ashamed to do this, and in silence, as if withdrawing from themselves the hope of the life of God, they either apostatize entirely or hesitate between the two courses" (Against Heresies 1:22 [A.D. 189]).

Tertullian

"[Regarding confession, some] flee from this work as being an exposure of themselves, or they put it off from day to day. I presume they are more mindful of modesty than of salvation, like those who contract a disease in the more shameful parts of the body and shun making themselves known to the physicians; and thus they perish along with their own bashfulness" (Repentance 10:1 [A.D. 203]).

Hippolytus

"[The bishop conducting the ordination of the new bishop shall pray:] God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. . . . Pour forth now that power which comes from you, from your royal Spirit, which you gave to your beloved Son, Jesus Christ, and which he bestowed upon his holy apostles . . . and grant this your servant, whom you have chosen for the episcopate, [the power] to feed your holy flock and to serve without blame as your high priest, ministering night and day to propitiate unceasingly before your face and to offer to you the gifts of your holy Church, and by the Spirit of the high priesthood to have the authority to forgive sins, in accord with your command" (Apostolic Tradition 3 [A.D. 215]).

Origen

"[A final method of forgiveness], albeit hard and laborious [is] the remission of sins through penance, when the sinner . . . does not shrink from declaring his sin to a priest of the Lord and from seeking medicine, after the manner of him who say, ‘I said, "To the Lord I will accuse myself of my iniquity"’" (Homilies on Leviticus 2:4 [A.D. 248]).

Cyprian of Carthage

"The apostle [Paul] likewise bears witness and says: ‘ . . . Whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord’ [1 Cor. 11:27]. But [the impenitent] spurn and despise all these warnings; before their sins are expiated, before they have made a confession of their crime, before their conscience has been purged in the ceremony and at the hand of the priest . . . they do violence to [the Lord’s] body and blood, and with their hands and mouth they sin against the Lord more than when they denied him" (The Lapsed 15:1–3 (A.D. 251]).

"Of how much greater faith and salutary fear are they who . . . confess their sins to the priests of God in a straightforward manner and in sorrow, making an open declaration of conscience. . . . I beseech you, brethren, let everyone who has sinned confess his sin while he is still in this world, while his confession is still admissible, while the satisfaction and remission made through the priests are still pleasing before the Lord" (ibid., 28).

"inners may do penance for a set time, and according to the rules of discipline come to public confession, and by imposition of the hand of the bishop and clergy receive the right of Communion. [but now some] with their time [of penance] still unfulfilled . . . they are admitted to Communion, and their name is presented; and while the penitence is not yet performed, confession is not yet made, the hands of the bishop and clergy are not yet laid upon them, the Eucharist is given to them; although it is written, ‘Whosoever shall eat the bread and drink the cup of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord’ [1 Cor. 11:27]" (Letters 9:2 [A.D. 253]).

"And do not think, dearest brother, that either the courage of the brethren will be lessened, or that martyrdoms will fail for this cause, that penance is relaxed to the lapsed, and that the hope of peace [i.e., absolution] is offered to the penitent. . . . For to adulterers even a time of repentance is granted by us, and peace is given" (ibid., 51[55]:20).

"But I wonder that some are so obstinate as to think that repentance is not to be granted to the lapsed, or to suppose that pardon is to be denied to the penitent, when it is written, ‘Remember whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works’ [Rev. 2:5], which certainly is said to him who evidently has fallen, and whom the Lord exhorts to rise up again by his deeds [of penance], because it is written, ‘Alms deliver from death’ [Tob. 12:9]" (ibid., 51[55]:22).

You might argue that certain verses mean this or that, but the simple fact that you cannot find any way possible to answer all verses should cause a light bulb to go off in your head... The ONLY logical answer is that the Catholic Church IS the Church built by Christ.

The problem with your arguments is the simple fact that you are not arguing with us... You are arguing with God. No man can win against God. Why do you try?

[ironmonk]

The word for baptize in scripture means 'to immerse'. Baptists(and myself) believe that scriptural baptism is Immersion.

Baptists do not baptize people because 'they don't beleve baptism was part of their first salvation experience.' They will re-baptize people who 'get saved', even if they were baptized before. Why? Because some people make a false profession of faith(in other words, they claim to be saved and believe in Jesus Christ when they really don't), and get baptized, but later come to repentance, and receive true salvation. For this reason they are rebaptized.

You have been taught wrong.

Read this: http://www.catholic.com/library/Baptism_Im...ersion_Only.asp

Also, NO ONE is saved until the END!

Once saved always saved IS A LIE! It is a doctrine of man.

St. Matt 10:22

You will be hated by all because of my name, but whoever endures to the end will be saved.

St. Matt 24:13

But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved.

No one will be saved until the end. We must endure to the end.

The Catholic Church believes Jesus. Why don't you?

Salvation is NOT a one time thing.

Phil. 2:12

So then, my beloved, obedient as you have always been, not only when I am present but all the more now when I am absent, work out your salvation with fear and trembling.

As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13)

OSAS is a make believe 'place' that was created by people who wanted it to be so because they either didn't want to face the truth of their actions and where in denial, or it was done up by some atheists wanting to make a quick buck... It's make believe... just like how the mormons are told they'll become gods... just like the muslims are told there will be 70 virgins waiting for them... etc.... It has no basis in scripture, anyone who has really studied the Scriptures would not believe such nonsense... To really study the scriptures, one has to look at all the verses where it talks about certain topics... Like a big word problem in your algebra classes. Not to many people are good with algebra, so I do understand how someone could believe the lie... to many people do not know how to think for themselves. Such as every anti-Catholic on the face of the earth.

-ironmonk

[hyperdulia again]

you rock ironmonk!

Edited July 20, 2003 by hyperdulia again

[littleflower+JMJ]

i know ironmonk is like our very own Arnold Swarchienager (sp?) for the Catholic Faith and that i think is VeRy Cool!!

[Katholikos]

1. We trust that God only allowed the books into the Bible that belong in the Bible. Historically the criteria for entering a book into the Bible wasn't a buffet type deal-pick what you like, but was much tougher. Please read the verses that are referenced. Also, these distinctives transcend the GARBC into all Baptist Churches.

2. John 20:23 is a specific command to the Apostles of Christ, and I don't believe means what the Catholic Church teaches it to mean. James 5:16 is a call to prayer and confession. Not necessarily to a priest for absolution. James 5:13-15 - As we know not everyone we pray for who is sick gets better. Only if it is in the Lords will are they healed.

Baptism and Communion were specifically instituted by Jesus Christ for all Christians to participate in.

CRITERIA FOR CANON OF NT

The Church could have selected any number of writings, or no writings, but she chose 27 to be the Christian Scriptures, the Scriptures of the New Covenant. She established a certain standard by which the writings were measured to determine if they would be in or out of the canon:

(1) The writings had to be either written or influenced by an Apostle (for example, St. John wrote his own Gospel; but John Mark, neither an Apostle nor an eyewitness, wrote the Gospel of Mark based on the recollections of St. Peter.)

(2) The writings had to have been universally accepted by the local Churches by the end of the 4th century [some were accepted later than others, which is how we got the "deuterocanon" of both the NT and OT].

(3) the writings had to have been used historically by the local Churches during the celebration of the Divine Liturgy [Holy Mass] in the Liturgy of the Word.

(4) And -- the writings had to conform to the teachings of the Church and with other already accepted writings.

It would have been extremely foolish of the Church to incorporate into the Christian Scriptures a writing or writings which were in conflict with what she taught, now wouldn't it? So when Protestants say the Church is not biblical, it only proves the depth of their misinterpretation and misunderstanding.

Only the Catholic Church's understanding of the Sacred Writings is correct. She wrote the NT, and therefore knows what it means.

Albert Einstein does not have an interpretation of the Theory of Relativity -- he wrote it and therefore understands what he meant by the words he used. Others who read it have an interpretation.

William Shakespeare does not have an interpretation of Hamlet -- he wrote it and therefore understands what he meant by the words he used. Others who read it have an interpretation.

The Catholic Church does not have an interpretation of the New Testament -- she wrote it and therefore understands what she meant by the words she used. Others who read it, interpret it.

The 27 writings would not be in the New Testament at all if they didn't conform to the teaching of the Church. The Church came first, and was teaching the doctrines of the Apostles while the NT was being written. The Church is the repository, the preserver, and the guardian of the Depositum Fidei -- the Revelation of Almighty God -- as taught by the Apostles, who learned it from the lips of Jesus, who was God Himself.

The Church heard Confessions for about 65 years before the Apostle wrote the words of John 20:23. She knows what it means -- it was written about her experience, her history! The Church celebrated the True Presence of Christ in the Eucharist long before St. Paul wrote "The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a particiation in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ?" to the Corinthians in 56 A.D.

If anyone wants to know what the New Testament REALLY means, they should come to the Church that wrote it.

JMJ Jay (Likos)

[Anna]

We trust that God only allowed the books into the Bible that belong in the Bible.

When did God do this? (4th Century, or 16th? or later?)

When the Bible was first compiled by the Church He founded, was it inerrant?

Or did it become inerrant after Luther and others began removing books that had been in the Bible for 1,200 years?

Historically the criteria for entering a book into the Bible wasn't a buffet type deal-pick what you like, but was much tougher.

When in history are you talking about?

And who established the criteria?

What was the tough criteria of which you speak?

Are you speaking of the original Scriptures, compiled by the Catholic Church in the 4th Century?

Or are you referring to the reformers 1200 years later?

If God only allowed the Books into the Bible that belonged there, why did the reformers feel otherwise and remove some?

Pax Christi. <><

Edited July 20, 2003 by Anna

[Brother Adam]

I don't know. I just don't have answers to those questions.

[Anna]

That's ok, Adam.

We do believe that God guided the Catholic Church when compiling the Bible in the 4th Century.

We believe that Jesus promised to send the Holy Spirit to guide His Church until the end of time.

And Catholics do believe that the Bible is the inerrant word of God.

However, we are saddened that after it was preserved for nealy twelve centuries, men who disagreed with some of its proscriptions began deleting and editing God's Holy Word.

Your statement above, which I broke into two, either agrees completely with our beliefs, or is something entirely different, but I couldn't tell which Bible or time in history you were referring to...

Pax Christi. <><

[Brother Adam]

Honestly, that answer is one of those 'preformatted" answers that we are taught as Baptists to give others.

[Anna]

Honestly, that answer is one of those 'preformatted" answers that we are taught as Baptists to give others.

..."pre-formatted answers..." That's an interesting concept.

Thanks for your honesty, though.

Feel free to take my questions back to the Baptist waters...

Pax Christi. <><