Mortal sin, etc. question

[Anastasia13]

I placed this in this area rather than Q & A bcause I wanted to be able to reply later.

What happens when a person commits a mortal sin?

[StColette]

1861 Mortal sin is a radical possibility of human freedom, as is love itself. It results in the loss of charity and the privation of sanctifying grace, that is, of the state of grace. If it is not redeemed by repentance and God's forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ's kingdom and the eternal death of hell, for our freedom has the power to make choices for ever, with no turning back. However, although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God.

[Anastasia13]

[quote name='StColette' date='Aug 25 2005, 04:24 PM']1861 Mortal sin is a radical possibility of human freedom, as is love itself. It results in the loss of charity and the privation of sanctifying grace, that is, of the state of grace. If it is not redeemed by repentance and God's forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ's kingdom and the eternal death of hell, for our freedom has the power to make choices for ever, with no turning back. However, although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God.
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What happens if a person does not go the confession with a priest?

[Anastasia13]

Oops, double post.

Edited August 26, 2005 by Light and Truth

[Anastasia13]

Does committing a mortal sin mean disbelief?

[StColette]

[quote name='Light and Truth' date='Aug 26 2005, 02:43 PM']What happens if a person does not go the confession with a priest?
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Well, for a Catholic not going to Confession while one is in the state of mortal sin, means that one is still out of a state of grace and also can not receive Communion. For [w]hoever . . . eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord" (1 Cor. 11:27)

[StColette]

[quote name='Light and Truth' date='Aug 26 2005, 02:46 PM']Does committing a mortal sin mean disbelief?
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I've never heard of committing a mortal sin means disbelief. I do know that mortal sins are committed not because of our lack of faith but because of our human weakness.

[Anastasia13]

[quote name='StColette' date='Aug 26 2005, 01:57 PM']Well, for a Catholic not going to Confession while one is in the state of mortal sin, means that one is still out of a state of grace...[right][snapback]700234[/snapback][/right]
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Does that mean that one who does not go to confession will go to hell?

[StColette]

[quote name='Light and Truth' date='Aug 26 2005, 03:15 PM']Does that mean that one who does not go to confession will go to hell?
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If mortal sins are not confessed in the Sacrament of Penance before a priest, they deprive us of sanctifying Grace and if we die in this condition we will be punished with eternal fire [1 John 5:16].

[Anastasia13]

[quote name='StColette' date='Aug 26 2005, 02:20 PM']If mortal sins are not confessed in the Sacrament of Penance before a priest, they deprive us of sanctifying Grace and if we die in this condition we will be punished with eternal fire [1 John 5:16].
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What if one is unable to have the opportunity before dying?

If there is some kind of leniency if the person wanted to and tried as much as he could to go to confession (I'm assuming that this example person is guilty of a mortal sin), then what if he wanted to but didn't really persist in trying?

What if he could either tell someone else who was dying but didn't believe about Jesus or he could go to confession and there would be no one to tell the other person about Jesus? What should he do then? What would happen if then he did not go to confession but was still a repentant believer?

Edited August 26, 2005 by Light and Truth

[Anastasia13]

[quote name='StColette' date='Aug 26 2005, 02:20 PM']If mortal sins are not confessed in the Sacrament of Penance before a priest, they deprive us of sanctifying Grace and if we die in this condition we will be punished with eternal fire [1 John 5:16].
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1 John 5:16 seems more like instructions on what we should do if we see someone sinning and an indication that there is sin that leads to death and sin that does not.

How can an action "committed not because of our lack of faith but because of our human weakness" result in eternal death becuase of a lack of a sacriment when there is still belief? [John 3:16, Romans 10:9]

[journeyman]

This isn't my league . . . so this may be too simplistic

If you bought concert tickets, but forgot to put them in your pocket, or put them in a pocket with a hole in it, or on your way to the auditorium your pocket was picked . . . you wouldn't be able to get into the concert. If you die "out of" the state of grace, your ticket is not in your pocket.

Forgetting to put the ticket in the pocket is roughly comparable to an action due to human weakness. There should not be culpability, but neither are you competent to enter the concert hall.

Degrees of eligibility to enter the kingdom and prayers for God's infinite mercy lead to a discussion of Purgatory, which is not the subject of this thread, and for which I am also unqualified to speak.

Confession (or Reconciliation, as it is formally called today) is the process by which the Catholic "gets right" again with God - regains the state of grace - and has the right to pass into the concert hall.

I have a vague recollection that a combination of sincere contrition and the lack of a confessor may allow entry . . . but that would be an exception to the rule

If this is going to lead into "by faith alone" - another area in which I'm not qualified to speak - although there are a number of threads on the topic - I would say only that "faith" without acting upon the faith, runs the risk of being seen as merely hollow words . . . and thus not capable of replacing the "ticket" of grace

[StColette]

[quote]1 John 5:16 seems more like instructions on what we should do if we see someone sinning and an indication that there is sin that leads to death and sin that does not.[/quote]

1Jn:5:16:
16 He that knoweth his brother to sin a sin which is not to death, let him ask: and life shall be given to him who sinneth not to death. There is a sin unto death. For that I say not that any man ask. (DRV)

1 John 5:16 explains that there are different types of sin. Mortal sins are what put the soul in jeopardy. What I typed was merely showing that there is a difference between certain sins

[quote]How can an action "committed not because of our lack of faith but because of our human weakness" result in eternal death becuase of a lack of a sacrament when there is still belief? [John 3:16, Romans 10:9][/quote]

I'm going to try my best not to make this sound like a debate, cause that's what this might lead into.

Rom:10:9:
9 For if thou confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in thy heart that God hath raised him up from the dead, thou shalt be saved. (DRV)

I Have Been Saved (past event)

Rom. 8:24 - for in this hope we were saved (but, again, why "hope" if salvation is a certainty?)

Eph. 2:5,8 - for by grace you have been saved through faith.

2 Tim. 1:9 - He saved us and called us through grace and not by virtue of our own works outside of His grace.

Titus 3:5 - He saved us in virtue of His own mercy, and not by our deeds.

I Am Being Saved (present event)

1 Cor. 1:18 - for the word of the cross is folly to those perishing, but for to us who are being saved, it is the power of God. Salvation is not a one-time event. It is a process of perseverance through faith, hope and love.

2 Cor. 2:15 - for we are the aroma of Christ to God among those who are being saved. Salvation is a continual process.

Phil. 2:12 - we are working out our salvation through fear and trembling. Salvation is an ongoing process.

1 Peter 1:9 - you obtain the salvation of your souls as the outcome of your faith. Working out our salvation in fear and trembling is a lifelong process.

I Will Be Saved (future event)

Matt. 10:22, 24:13; Mark 13:13 - again, Jesus taught that we must endure to the very end to be saved. Salvation is a past, present and future event (not a one-time event at an altar call).

Mark 16:16 – Jesus says whoever believes and is baptized will be saved.

Acts 15:11 - we believe that we shall be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus.

Rom. 5:9-10 - since we are justified by His blood, we shall be saved.

Rom. 13:11 - salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed. How can we be only nearer to something we already have?

1 Cor. 3:15 - he will be saved, but only as through fire.

1 Cor. 5:5 - Paul commands the Church to deliver a man to satan, that he will be saved in the day of the Lord.

2 Tim. 2:11-12 - if we endure, we shall also reign with Him. This requires endurance until the end of our lives.

Heb. 9:28 - Jesus will appear a second time to save those who are eagerly waiting for Him.

James 5:15 - the sacrament of the sick will save the sick man and the Lord will raise him up.

Jn:3:16:
16 For God so loved the world, as to give his only begotten Son: that whosoever believeth in him may not perish, but may have life everlasting. (DRV)

Just because one has been baptized into the life, death, and resurrection of Christ, it does not gurantee a person's entry into Heaven if they ignore the Commandments of God. This is where Once Saved Always Saved has it's problems. One can not guarantee their salvation because they are not the judge of their own soul, God is. We can try and examine our souls and see if they reflect God.

If a soul has a single mortal sin and it has not been confessed, that soul can not enter into Heaven.

Rv. 21:27
but nothing unclean will enter it, nor any (one) who does abominable things or tells lies.

Sins make our souls dirty and unclean, so you see how a singular sin mortal or venial can cause the soul to either be damned or sent to Purgatory (the case for people that die with venial sins on their souls).

Even after a person has been baptized, it is common knowledge that this person will most likely commit a sin either mortal or venial before their death. If a person commits a mortal sin, this can result in the loss of sanctifying grace.

Hebrew 6:4-8 ... believers can apostasize, be damned.

4 For it is impossible for those who were once illuminated, have tasted also the heavenly gift and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 Have moreover tasted the good word of God and the powers of the world to come,
6 And are fallen away: to be renewed again to penance, crucifying again to themselves the Son of God and making him a mockery.
7 For the earth, that drinketh in the rain which cometh often upon it and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is tilled, receiveth blessing from God.
8 But that which bringeth forth thorns and briers is reprobate and very near unto a curse: whose end is to be burnt.

Heb 10:26-29 ... those sanctified who sin can still be damned.
26 For if we sin wilfully after having the knowledge of the truth, there is now left no sacrifice for sins:
27 But a certain dreadful expectation of judgment, and the rage of a fire which shall consume the adversaries.
28 A man making void the law of Moses dieth without any mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 How much more, do you think he deserveth worse punishments, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God and hath esteemed the blood of the testament unclean, by which he was sanctified, and hath offered an affront to the Spirit of grace?

If one who believes in OSAS thinks that their Salvation is clearly set out, how do they explain Phi 2:12

Phil:2:12:
12 ¶ Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only but much more now in my absence) with fear and trembling work out your salvation. (DRV)

If one's salvation has been guranteed then why does Paul say "with fear and trembling work out your salvation". It is because Salvation is not guaranteed because God is the only one who can judge a soul. God is the one who determines who enters Heaven and who does not.

1 Cor. 4:4
"I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby justified. It is the Lord who judges me"

Here Paul talks about how he is unaware of anything (sins) that could be against himself. He goes on to say that he can not be justified because it is the Lord who judges.

Mt:7:21:
21 ¶ Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven. (DRV)

By this verse there could be Christians who well of course believe in Christ, but do not do the will of the Father, that will be kept out of the Kingdom of Heaven. And the will of the Father is keeping the Commandments.

As for the forgiveness of future sins, no where in the Bible does it say that future sins that haven't been confessed are forgiven. All sins past, present, and future are accounted for by Christ's sacrifice but one must feel sorrow and confess their sins before they are forgiven. In fact, Jesus teaches us the Our Father (Lord's Prayer) in which it says "And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors" Now would Jesus have taught us to say this prayer and to say it often if our sins are fully forgiven without even confessing them first.

Confessing our sins cleanses us

1 John 1:9
"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness"

[quote]How can an action "committed not because of our lack of faith but because of our human weakness" result in eternal death becuase of a lack of a sacrament when there is still belief? [John 3:16, Romans 10:9][/quote]

Had to quote this part again

Committing a Mortal Sin does not destroy faith

Summa Theologica

Objection 5. Further, the object of a theological virtue is the last end. Now the other theological virtues, namely faith and hope, are not done away by one mortal sin, in fact they remain though lifeless. Therefore charity can remain without a form, even when a mortal sin has been committed.

Reply to Objection 5. Charity denotes union with God, whereas faith and hope do not. Now every mortal sin consists in aversion from God, as stated above (Gen. ad lit. viii, 12). Consequently every moral sin is contrary to charity, but not to faith and hope, but only certain determinate sins, which destroy the habit of faith or of hope, even as charity is destroyed by every moral sin. Hence it is evident that charity cannot remain lifeless, since it is itself the ultimate form regarding God under the aspect of last end as stated above (23, 8).

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Man can do naturally good acts in mortal sin, but can he do supernaturally good acts? (All supernatural acts are good.) In His infinite mercy God keeps the virtues of faith and hope in the soul of the sinner unless the sinner commits a sin against these virtues. Thus faith and hope remain in the soul of the person in mortal sin in a preternatural state, existing without their subject, which is grace. These virtues are true supernatural virtues, but as they are not enlivened by charity, the virtue incompatible with mortal sin, they are not meritorious.

[url="http://www.cts.org.au/2000/mortalsin.htm"]http://www.cts.org.au/2000/mortalsin.htm[/url]

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1815 The gift of faith remains in one who has not sinned against it. [Cf. Council of Trent (1547): DS 1545] But "faith apart from works is dead": [Jas 2:26] when it is deprived of hope and love, faith does not fully unite the believer to Christ and does him a living member of his Body.

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Q. 468. Why are Faith, Hope and Charity called virtues?

A. Faith, Hope and Charity are called virtues because they are not mere acts, but habits by which we always and in all things believe God, hope in Him, and love Him.

Q. 469. What kind of virtues are Faith, Hope and Charity?

A. Faith, Hope and Charity are called infused theological virtues to distinguish them from the four moral virtues -- Prudence, Justice, Fortitude and Temperance.

Q. 470. Why do we say the three theological virtues are infused and the four moral virtues acquired?

A. We say the three theological virtues are infused; that is, poured into our souls, because they are strictly gifts of God and do not depend upon our efforts to obtain them, while the four moral virtues -- Prudence, Justice, Fortitude and Temperance -- though also gifts of God, may, as natural virtues, be acquired by our own efforts.

Q. 472. What mortal sins are opposed to Faith?

A. Atheism, which is a denial of all revealed truths, and heresy, which is a denial of some revealed truths, and superstition, which is a misuse of religion, are opposed to Faith.

[url="http://www.ourladyswarriors.org/faith/bc3-10.htm"]http://www.ourladyswarriors.org/faith/bc3-10.htm[/url]

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Edited August 26, 2005 by StColette

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='StColette' date='Aug 26 2005, 06:08 PM'][url="http://www.cts.org.au/2000/mortalsin.htm"]http://www.cts.org.au/2000/mortalsin.htm[/url]
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woh!!! new website!!! quit holdin out on me!!!!

*nick pilfers that site for articles for his reference section

[StColette]

[quote name='phatcatholic' date='Aug 26 2005, 08:28 PM']woh!!!  new website!!! quit holdin out on me!!!!

*nick pilfers that site for articles for his reference section
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rofl if you had been watching the thread about, is faith lost when in the state of mortal sin? You would have seen it :

[phatcatholic]

[morostheos]

I'm confused...I thought if you made an act of perfect contrition you were no longer in a state of mortal sin....that's what the Legionary priest told me.

[StColette]

[quote name='morostheos' date='Aug 27 2005, 01:14 PM']I'm confused...I thought if you made an act of perfect contrition you were no longer in a state of mortal sin....that's what the Legionary priest told me. 
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Catechism

1452 When it arises from a love by which God is loved above all else, contrition is called "perfect" (contrition of charity). Such contrition remits venial sins;[b] it also obtains forgiveness of mortal sins if it includes the firm resolution to have recourse to sacramental confession as soon as possible. [/b](51)

1453. The contrition called 'imperfect' (or 'attrition') is also a gift of God, a prompting of the Holy Spirit. It is born of the consideration of sin's ugliness or the fear of eternal damnation and the other penalties threatening the sinner (contrition of fear). Such a stirring of conscience can initiate an interior process which, under the prompting of grace, will be brought to completion by sacramental absolution. By itself however, imperfect contrition cannot obtain the forgiveness of grave sins, but it disposes one to obtain forgiveness in the sacrament of Penance. [Cf. Council of Trent (1551): DS 1678; 1705.] – Catechism, Op. cit, pp. 872-73k

The governing canon is 916: "A person who is conscious of grave [i.e., mortal] sin is not to celebrate Mass or to receive the Body of the Lord without prior sacramental confession unless a grave reason is present and there is no opportunity of confessing; in this case the person is to be mindful of the obligation to make an act of perfect contrition, including the intention of confessing as soon as possible."

With perfect contrition, there is inseparably connected a desire to receive the Sacrament of Penance (at least implicitly). Perfect contrition may be likened to Baptism of Desire and the same is true of an act of perfect charity, or love. But we need not go to confession immediately after we have made an act of perfect contrition. When making an act of perfect contrition, it is not necessary that that the desire to go to confession be conceived explicitly; it is enough that the penitent be ready to go to confession when the obligation arises and occasion presentst itself. Consequently, we should frequently make acts of perfect contrition, but particularly at the hour of death, or when our life is endangered, and we should ask God for the grace of perfect contrition, for it is a gift of God and an impulse of the Holy Ghost. However, to make an act of perfect contrition uin order to receive Communion, though valid in the event there are no priests available to hear confessions, is to be done very rarely, for confession before Communion is the proper method of preparation for Communion. – Rev. Francis Spirago, The Catechism Explained

203. What is perfect contrition?

Perfect contrition is that which fills us with sorrow and hatred for sin, because it offends God, who is infinitely good in Himself and worthy of all love.

Of what special value is perfect contrition?

Perfect contrition has the special value of remitting sins immediately, even before confession, though it implies the intention of confessing them later.

When should we make an Act of perfect contrition?

We should make an Act of perfect contrition from time to time in the course of life, particularly at the hour of death, or when our life is in danger. – Rev. Thomas J. O'Brien, Advanced Catechism of Catholic Faith and Practice

Edited August 27, 2005 by StColette

[morostheos]

Thanks for the clarification! :

[StColette]

[quote name='morostheos' date='Aug 27 2005, 01:24 PM']Thanks for the clarification! :
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No problem