World Youth Day

[Oik]

I just got back from WYD and let just say, my group endured the good with the bad (and yes, there was some baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad).

Needless to say, I am going to try to attend WYD 2008 in Sydney. The abuses can't keep me a way.

I plan on trying to go and meet with Juventutem at WYD. I'm thinking i'll make a stay out of it and leave three weeks early, fly into London, and make my way somewhere close to Sydney, like India or Japan or somewhere closer, to fly out to Sydney. Then of course, afterwards, make my way back a similar route to fly out of London.

Or something like that.

[avemaria40]

but i don't think that altar girls or anything like that are abuses. I know, i haven't been so i don't know, but honestly, i think they were just trying to make the Mass more youth friendly so that everyone could enjoy it and, although Mass is NOT supposed to be entertainment, they could end up getting something out of Mass and pray and sing their hearts out for God. also, the magisterium said OK to altar girls, last i checked and, as i've said in previous posts, i honestly don't see a problem with girl altar servers.

[Oik]

Altar girls and music that appealled more to the youth seemed not only as a priority, but a manditory occurance at WYD.

As for the music, i was mortally wounded althrough out the experience at have to attend Masses at Churches that had $200,000 organs that weren't played (although the organists always sat at the organ during Mass to entertain us with a song efore and after the Mass). Worse still, these organists had been playing on averge of 15 years.

Instead, we were etertained with the rock n' roll sensibilites of "modern hymns" during Mass played by a single person with only an acoustic guitar.



The Masses were meant to express a world sensibility. Though it didn't seem to express many sensibilities at all.

I can only imagine though, all the hard work, planning, practice, and talent that went into making WYD possible (which was nothing short of amazing considering the number of people).

[Brother Adam]

Typical liturgical music at WYD:

"He's Got the Whole World in His Hands"

They even sung a song that had lyrics "There is no heaven, there is no hell."

[Noel's angel]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Aug 26 2005, 08:10 PM']Typical liturgical music at WYD:

"He's Got the Whole World in His Hands"

They even sung a song that had lyrics "There is no heaven, there is no hell."
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i think i'm going to be sick

[avemaria40]

Ok, that's pretty bad

[Guest JeffCR07]

There was some stuff there that was definately questionable. That having been said, I will admit that some of the music during the Mass, though I wasn't used to it, was not totally out of line, even for someone with traditionalist tendencies like me. for example, the Gloria (I think) was done in the traditional way that it has been done in asia (specifically China). Thus, it was "traditional" in one sense, but not [i]traditional[/i] in a Western sense.

Also, I may have been blocking it out (very possible) but I didn't notice any electric guitars during the Mass, only during the vigil, and before and after the Mass. I may be wrong there, however.

Anyways, my vote went to "go with an orthodox/orthoprax group" because not everything at the mass is perfect, and it is always good to go with people you can trust.

I went with the Legionnaires of Christ and Regnum Christ, so I had a great time. (the Mass they said at the Novitiate was actually way prettier than the WYD Mass, but it was pope-less).

[Myles Domini]

The idea of a World Youth Day is wonderful the way the one in Germany was done is very questionable. World Youth Day should be about the encounter of Christ in an intimate and personal way and what Benedict XVI said in his homilies to us on Saturday night and Sunday morn encapsulated everything that World Youth Day should be. However, at sundry times I got the feeling that Catholicism was cheapened by the organisers in an attempt to make it more 'palatable'. They treated us like we were young, not young adults. Some of what we were expected to sing I would've used in catechesis with first communion candidates.

At our age what we should be recieving is the message that at the Eucharist we meet the God who has breached the infinite gap to be with us and love us, as Benedict XVI said. The God who offers Himself completely out of love desiring only a loving response and demanding nothing at all: For while we were still sinners he died for us, the righteous for the unrighteous. It is that message the message the Pope fed us in his homilies that changes lives. Happy clappy songs simply pleasure the senses this is the false mysticism St John of the Cross quickly condemns in the opening chapters of the Dark Night of the Soul and indeed I've yet to find one mystic writer who thinks excitement of the sense is a good basis for religion.

The World Youth Day organisers had the chance to initiate those that attended the event into the deepest mysteries of Christ's life to bring out that as 1 Peter tells us, we have become 'partakers in the divine nature' all because Christ loves us and for free. Its the ultimate counter cultural message to 21st century man that He could be loved and loved infinately not for his versace jeans or his dolce and gabbana glasses or his gucci loafers but simply for himself, his REAL self by a being who doesnt need Him. Its the message I believe the youth are truly dying to hear. In my opinion Benedict XVI saved the event by preaching it but the World Youth Day organisers squandered it by making so little out of the theme venemus adorare eum.

For instance, in Dusseldorf the missionaries of charity set up the high altar of a church for adoration with statues of the Magi kneeling before the Blessed Sacrament. Why could we not have had something similar done on Saturday when everyone was sat in the field ignoring the concert the Germans put on?

Now this might sound like a savage critique but I actually have more good memories of World Youth Day than bad. However, I dont believe that the event as it is currently structured offers a genuine taste of Catholicism to people. It doesnt get into the why's of belief, it doesnt offer the life changing love of Christ in easy to understand language. All I wanted was for someone to talk about what the Eucharist really meant and when you have a week of events running to have to wait until the Holy Father shows up to get that message is a dissapointment, regardless of how eloquent his homilies were.

We're Catholic, we are the Church of the Eucharist and this was the year of the Eucharist. We are a generation crying out for something real, a generation of self-harmers and kids who shoot up their schools, a generation choking under the yolk of consumerism and the mantle of materialism. The Eucharist in the face of the grasping lust of the world is nothing short of true liberation and it is my contention that had its true meaning been preached all week left. Many people would've left World Youth Day completely converted in their hearts. As it stands I am unsure of the effect World Youth Day will have on many people's practical living of the Catholic faith.

You shouldnt need to go with an orthodox group of Catholics to be safe at World Youth Day (thank heavens all my group were). World Youth Day should be a haven for Catholicism an advert to the world of what we really are. The very need for this poll says there is something wrong with World Youth Day, something that needs to be changed before the next one. I for one move to ask the phatmassers to begin sending letters to Syndey now to ask for something a little more Catholic, something which gets to the roots of God's love for us and how that love leads to a change of life. As my sig says "we love because God first loves us" to know what Jesus offers in the Eucharist: 100% self giving, is to be moved to do something about it and to know that the judgement of the world is irrelevant in the face of God's uncompromising affection.

This is the message that saved the Church at the Reformation through the Carmelite reform, the heart of Philip Neri's oratory and the Ignatius exercises of the J's etc. The message that broke the back of pessimistic Protestantism and cruel Jansenism and I believe that the same formula is needed now to transform the culture around us. World Youth Day's organisers need to wake up from their sojourn in the 60's and get with the programme. In their efforts to modernise they've got stuck in a time period that is now gone and they are no longer able to identify the needs of today's youth which ironically are the same as the needs of the youth in any age of man: Pure love, pure goodness and pure truth aka Christ.

[popestpiusx]

Juventutem all the way, though realistically speaking, I would just save my money.

Edited August 27, 2005 by popestpiusx

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

how about just don't go

[Myles Domini]

[quote]how about just don't go[/quote]

Because there's nothing wrong as such with the idea of World Youth Day. Its just the current set up that needs to be tweaked. If people didnt go they would cancel the whole event and that would be a tragedy because a) its fun b) it brings lots of people together around the Pope and c) if they brushed it up a little it could inspire uncountable conversions. Like I said I have more good memories than bad from WYD all I'm asking is that the organisers do more to emphasise the doctrinal aspects of our faith.

[toledo_jesus]

maybe send this in letter form to the WYD organizers so 08 will be better???


[quote name='Myles' date='Aug 26 2005, 04:20 PM']The idea of a World Youth Day is wonderful the way the one in Germany was done is very questionable. World Youth Day should be about the encounter of Christ in an intimate and personal way and what Benedict XVI said in his homilies to us on Saturday night and Sunday morn encapsulated everything that World Youth Day should be. However, at sundry times I got the feeling that Catholicism was cheapened by the organisers in an attempt to make it more 'palatable'. They treated us like we were young, not young adults. Some of what we were expected to sing I would've used in catechesis with first communion candidates.

At our age what we should be recieving is the message that at the Eucharist we meet the God who has breached the infinite gap to be with us and love us, as Benedict XVI said. The God who offers Himself completely out of love desiring only a loving response and demanding nothing at all: For while we were still sinners he died for us, the righteous for the unrighteous. It is that message the message the Pope fed us in his homilies that changes lives. Happy clappy songs simply pleasure the senses this is the false mysticism St John of the Cross quickly condemns in the opening chapters of the Dark Night of the Soul and indeed I've yet to find one mystic writer who thinks excitement of the sense is a good basis for religion.

The World Youth Day organisers had the chance to initiate those that attended the event into the deepest mysteries of Christ's life to bring out that as 1 Peter tells us, we have become 'partakers in the divine nature' all because Christ loves us and for free. Its the ultimate counter cultural message to 21st century man that He could be loved and loved infinately not for his versace jeans or his dolce and gabbana glasses or his gucci loafers but simply for himself, his REAL self by a being who doesnt need Him. Its the message I believe the youth are truly dying to hear. In my opinion Benedict XVI saved the event by preaching it but the World Youth Day organisers squandered it by making so little out of the theme venemus adorare eum.

For instance, in Dusseldorf the missionaries of charity set up the high altar of a church for adoration with statues of the Magi kneeling before the Blessed Sacrament. Why could we not have had something similar done on Saturday when everyone was sat in the field ignoring the concert the Germans put on?

Now this might sound like a savage critique but I actually have more good memories of World Youth Day than bad. However, I dont believe that the event as it is currently structured offers a genuine taste of Catholicism to people. It doesnt get into the why's of belief, it doesnt offer the life changing love of Christ in easy to understand language. All I wanted was for someone to talk about what the Eucharist really meant and when you have a week of events running to have to wait until the Holy Father shows up to get that message is a dissapointment, regardless of how eloquent his homilies were.

We're Catholic, we are the Church of the Eucharist and this was the year of the Eucharist. We are a generation crying out for something real, a generation of self-harmers and kids who shoot up their schools, a generation choking under the yolk of consumerism and the mantle of materialism. The Eucharist in the face of the grasping lust of the world is nothing short of true liberation and it is my contention that had its true meaning been preached all week left. Many people would've left World Youth Day completely converted in their hearts. As it stands I am unsure of the effect World Youth Day will have on many people's practical living of the Catholic faith.

You shouldnt need to go with an orthodox group of Catholics to be safe at World Youth Day (thank heavens all my group were). World Youth Day should be a haven for Catholicism an advert to the world of what we really are. The very need for this poll says there is something wrong with World Youth Day, something that needs to be changed before the next one. I for one move to ask the phatmassers to begin sending letters to Syndey now to ask for something a little more Catholic, something which gets to the roots of God's love for us and how that love leads to a change of life. As my sig says "we love because God first loves us" to know what Jesus offers in the Eucharist: 100% self giving, is to be moved to do something about it and to know that the judgement of the world is irrelevant in the face of God's uncompromising affection.

This is the message that saved the Church at the Reformation through the Carmelite reform, the heart of Philip Neri's oratory and the Ignatius exercises of the J's etc. The message that broke the back of pessimistic Protestantism and cruel Jansenism and I believe that the same formula is needed now to transform the culture around us. World Youth Day's organisers need to wake up from their sojourn in the 60's and get with the programme. In their efforts to modernise they've got stuck in a time period that is now gone and they are no longer able to identify the needs of today's youth which ironically are the same as the needs of the youth in any age of man: Pure love, pure goodness and pure truth aka Christ.
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[dspen2005]

I find myself one of those individuals who abhors special Masses -- aka Masses for children, etc. It seems that WYD was one of these "special" Masses. While it was a special occasion, it does not necessarily follow that a special, youth-specific Mass ought to be offered. If we are ONE CHURCH, then there ought to be ONE MASS. A Mass that is authentic to the VII reforms. I didn't necessarily see any abuses, per se -- some poor taste in music was evident.

One thing that simply irritates -- and this is getting slightly off topic -- is the Children's Mass. I find it to be tepid and without any great merit. Why give children some simplified, overly immature Liturgy (I am not in any suggesting that the Mass in these situations is ineffective. I only intend to mean that they have a tendency to turn into very lacking in anything substantive concerning the Faith). CHildren ought to be attending the Mass as they would be attending as older, mature Catholics. The same holds true to WYD.

[Oik]

My experience taught me a lot about WYD and youth in general.

Myles, your right, I agree 100%. There shouldn't be a need for a poll like this. As for abuses/oddities at WYD (and Days in the Diocese), I'd have to say that my main encounter with them was had not at WYD, but at the day in the Diocese.

My group attended 'the days' in Munich, Aug 11-14. The specific instance that Brother Adam was referring too happened during the days at a Vespers service. They sang that atrocious (sp) John Lennon 'dreamer' song (what if there were no heaven...what if there were no religion), Knockin on heaven's doors and He's got the whole world in His hands.

During the last song, at 'Vespers,' a "female altar server" tossed a beach ball that had the world in it into the crowd from the altar for the crowd to bounce around.

Several Masses our group attended had a person up by the altar in the Sanctuary playing an acoustic guitar, rock-style, during Mass, instead of the 40-50 year old organs in the Church. Sadly, to make matters worse, the organists, who an average played for 15 years, were in the balcony seated at the organ! Why? To play a tune for us before and after Mass (and I don't mean entrance and exit Hymns/songs either).



I agree with Myles, we should be requesting holiness for the Youth. That is what they are looking for: Christ, Sanctity, Holiness, the Eucharist!

Not entertainment.

[picchick]

Last time I checked altar girls were ok. However, I don't think that I would have altar girls serve for the bishop let alone the pope. I am sure that there were plenty of seminarians that were able to fulfill the duty.

I liked the Music for the Mass at World Youth Day. Whether or not I liked it for the actual Mass I am not sure.

In response to EENS, I would disagree. I would suggest that anyone go. It is such a witness to be a youth in the largest gathering of youth in the world. This shows the world that "Hey! We are here, we are religious and you can't stop us. We are not afraid to show the world our faith." Not only this but you meet all sorts of youth at WYD some are VERY religious some are just a little religious. If you are VERY religious you might be able to warm the lukewarmness of a fellow youth just by being there.

The Pope had a very Eucharistic homily. He stressed that everything went back to the Eucharist. If we do not recieve the Eucharist than how do we expect to do anything else?

I believe that the Pope will help change the "problems" (and I put it in quotes because it is controversial) that you find in WYD.

Meg

[Myles Domini]

[quote]maybe send this in letter form to the WYD organizers so 08 will be better???[/quote]

I've written to the Sydney Archdiocese chancery office already I'm sure they'll be able to have a hand in whats going down. But one letter is nothing, write as many as possible.

Yes, Oik my experience of the days in the diocese was much like yours and I was thoroughly flabbergasted.

Picchick I apologise if I offend but I do think some of the music was indeed objectionable. In the Holy Eucharist the sacrifice of calvary is re-presented to the congregation and they are united to it. Particlarly the parts of the Mass surrounding the Eucharistic liturgy and leading up to Communion are the moments where the invisible mystery encapsulates the passion.

When the priest says 'behold the lamb of God' and raises Him aloft Christ is there on the cross and as you approach Him to recieve Him you stand in the shoes of John beside the Blessed Mother. To have someone playing unduly fast music when the tones should be solemn and meditative is something I must object to in all types of music new and old.

Pope St Pius X had similar objections to the operatic compositions that had invaded the Church during the so-called enlightenment. Master pieces of art many of them may well be but they are not right for the mystery of the Mass hence the great St Pius X made the effort to revive and support the Solesomes reform of the Gregorian Chant. I am not against modern music, I am against modern music which makes no attempt to adapt itself to the nature of the Mass. Just as I will object to some of Mozart of even Haydn's masses when I think they've got a little too creative.

Arabising the creed was uneccessary, jazzing up the gloria was unneccessary. Music in the mass holds a hallowed place because music cannot be seen or touched or tasted thus it is an excellent portal into the unseen mystery. This is its purpose in the liturgy. It should allow the believer to reach a calm state of mind where he can meditate on the invisible reality that Our Blessed Lord brings into his life during His hour. If it fails in this task, if it merely arouses sensory feelings then it is vanity and worthless.

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='picchick' date='Aug 27 2005, 04:37 PM']

In response to EENS, I would disagree.  I would suggest that anyone go.  It is such a witness to be a youth in the largest gathering of youth in the world.  This shows the world that "Hey!  We are here, we are religious and you can't stop us.  We are not afraid to show the world our faith."  .

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But what 'faith' is being presented to the world with nonsense like that going on during the various litugical services? I would suggest that it is not the Catholic Faith.

[Brother Adam]

EENS,

I would suggest it is the Catholic Faith. Never have the Gates of Hell prevailed against the Church, but through 2000 years of history the members of the Church, both laity and religious, both the poor average Joes, and the Popes themselves have gravely sinned, but that is the Church. We are human, sinful, and in need of grace. It's hard, it's gritty, and it is certianly not the faith of the Pharisees. We are one big family and there are wierdos, but it is a family none the less. Consider being a St. John the Cross or a St. Therese instead of a Martin Luther.

In the Catholic faith you will end up eating with tax collectors, and showing love to enemies that may never be reciprocated, but in the end the "well done, good and faithful servant" is worth it.

Edited August 28, 2005 by Brother Adam

[amdgboomer]

Sorry Myles, the Eucharist can't strictly be said to be re-presentation. Case in point, if at the sacrifice of the Mass, Christ is on the Cross, then we are receiving either the dead/dying flesh of Christ. Which the Church has rejected. We recieve the body of Christ, of which there is only one, and that is resurrected.

However re-presentation could be said to exist in a certain sense, in that they are one and the same sacrifice. In biblical sacrifice, there is offering and there is destruction of the thing being offered. According to many of the Church Fathers, at the Last Supper, Christ offered himself up and was then "destroyed" on the Cross. This in mind, the Last Supper and the Cross are but two aspects of Christ's one sacrifice. Trent seems to go on these lines too.

If A = B, and B = C, then A = C.

Anyway, if the Last Supper and the Cross are two facets of one event, and the Last Supper is of course the first Mass, then the Mass is one and the same. In the Last Supper, Christ offers himself up to be destroyed, on the Cross he offers himself up as being destroyed, and in the Mass he offers himself as having been destroyed.

So yes, the sacrifice of the Mass is the sacrifice of the Cross, but at the Mass, Christ is not crucified, he is not on the cross.

[amdgboomer]

And I like that my newborn status on here is known as "lurker".