Romans 9:20-23

[Anastasia13]

Why is it that Romans 9:20-23 doesn't indicate Calvinist predestination and reprobation to be correct?

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='Light and Truth' date='Aug 26 2005, 11:37 PM']Why is it that Romans 9:20-23 doesn't indicate Calvinist predestination and reprobation to be correct?
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first, a word about calvinist predestination and reprobation. from [url="http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/num21.htm"]this article[/url] we find the following ways in which the calvinist and the catholic understandings disagree:[list]Calvin : God's sovereignty determines the will.
Catholic : God's sovereignty includes free will.

Calvin : Predestination as predetermination.
Catholic : Predestination as infallible foreknowledge.

Calvin : God desires only the salvation of the elect.
Catholic : God desires the salvation of all.

Calvin : God provides grace only to the elect.
Catholic : God provides grace to all, though not all accept it.

Calvin : Christ died only for the elect.
Catholic : Christ died for all men.

Calvin : God predetermines some for hell.
Catholic : Men merit hell by their own wickedness.

Calvin : The elect include all those born-again.
Catholic : The elect are those who persevere to the end.

Calvin : Grace co-opts human free will.
Catholic : Grace perfects the free will that cooperates.

Calvin : Those in grace (born-again) can't fall away.
Catholic : Those in grace can freely sin and lose grace.

Calvin : The elect will unfailingly persevere.
Catholic : The elect are those who have persevered.

Calvin : The elect are assured of their salvation.
Catholic : Yes, but only God knows who they are.

Calvin : Predestination eliminates merit and guilt.
Catholic : Predestination includes merit and guilt.
[/list]this will be important to keep in mind while we address the scripture verses in question.

now, on to Rom 9:20-23:

[b]Rom 9:20-23[/b]
[b]20 [/b]But who are you, a man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me thus?"
[b]21 [/b]Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for beauty and another for menial use?
[b]22 [/b]What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction,
[b]23 [/b]in order to make known the riches of his glory for the vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory,

since your question seems to be regarding calvinist predestination w/in the context of reprobation, the verse at the heart of this matter is vs. 22 and the "vessels of wrath made for destruction." how can the catholic read about such vessels and still maintain that the Lord [i][b]does not[/b][/i] predetermine some men to hell?

in my opinion, the answer lies in the distinction between the active and the passive Will of the Lord. this may be a rather lengthy explanation, but if u'll bear w/ me i think u'll find that it is all pertinent to how we understand these verses.

the active Will of the Lord is represented by those things that occur as the direct result of the action of the Lord. for example, when God said "let there be light" there was light. the passive Will of the Lord is represented by those things that occur as the indirect result of the action of the Lord w/in a dynamic in which man's will is involved as well. the active and the passive will are at work in determining the eternal destination of man.

it was the Lord's will, in the active sense, that man have free will and that, when man uses this free will to reject the grace of the Lord, the end result will be eternal damnation. however, it is also His will, in the active sense, that when man uses his free will to accept the grace of the Lord, the end result will be eternal beatitude.

where man ultimately ends up is in accordance w/ the Lord's passive will. this is b/c God does not make some men for heaven and others for hell. instead, he creates a scenario in which man has the potential to find either heaven or hell and his response to the Lord's grace determines where he will go. so, if a man ends up in hell, this is the Lord's will only b/c it occurred w/in a scenario he created. however, it is His passive will b/c He did not actively send this man to hell. instead, he allowed him to choose hell for himself.

so, for example, when we read in the bible that the Lord hardened the heart of the pharoh, we understand this hardening in the passive sense. the Lord did not make the pharoh's heart hard. He does not force us, or even tempt us, to sin. instead, he allowed the pharoh to harden his own heart as the result of his insolence. w/ this understanding, we finally come to the "vessels made for destruction."

knowing what we now know about catholic vs. calvinist predestination and the Lord's active and passive will, we should understand the vessels from vs. 22 as being "made for destruction" not in the sense that God predetermined them for hell, but instead that he made them in a scenario in which desctruction could be theirs, and that's what they chose.

i hope that helps

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[journeyman]

Phat -

I appreciate the addition of the distinctions between Calvinist and Catholic views of predestination - coming out of a protestant background, I keep forgetting that some concepts don't quite match up with the Webster's definition in the back of my mind

I have to admit I always read those verses in Genesis to reveal a more "active" participation by the Lord in hardening pharaoh's heart . . . the way pharaoh waffled back and forth between being almost being reasonable and then changing his mind, I had the sense of outside influence . . . of course, that could be the influence of his earthly advisors - much in the way that Rehoboam (son of Solomon, who listened to the "young men") lost Israel - keeping Judah only because of God's promises to David) (1 Kings 11-12)

[thessalonian]

This question has been handled pretty well. I just want to say that a Catholic must always keep in mind that Protestants doctrines are rarely if ever ALL wrong. They are truth mixed with error. That is the sort of thing that satan does if you look at his words in the garden of Eden. He does not tell outright lies. No he is far more cunning. He distorts them so that they sound like truth.

Blessings