Extra ecclesiam nulla salus Posted August 31, 2005 Author Posted August 31, 2005 but fellay won't go for it unless the excommunication is declared invalid NOT if it is lifted so i don't think it will happen for a while.........
Extra ecclesiam nulla salus Posted August 31, 2005 Author Posted August 31, 2005 (edited) [url="http://sspx.org/Negotiations/what_catholics_need_to_know.htm"]sspx[/url] read this it will show you that the SSPX will not comprimise until Fellay's demands are met. Edited August 31, 2005 by Extra ecclesiam nulla salus
qfnol31 Posted August 31, 2005 Posted August 31, 2005 [quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Aug 30 2005, 11:28 PM'][url="http://sspx.org/Negotiations/what_catholics_need_to_know.htm"]sspx[/url] read this it will show you that the SSPX will not comprimise until Fellay's demands are met. [right][snapback]705977[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I have a little more faith than you, it seems, but that may be because I think that as prefect for the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith, Cardinal Ratzinger got into some arguments with Cardinal Kasper, and I don't think they agree on Ecumenism at all, at least from what I've read. I think that Pope Benedict is closer to Bishop Fellay than the Bishop actually realizes.
popestpiusx Posted August 31, 2005 Posted August 31, 2005 EENS, Much has happened since November. Be careful what you bet on. It seems to me (and coming from my SSPX friends as well) that reunion is highly likely so long as both sides play it straight and narrow with these negotiations. My predictions (not in this order): 1)The Holy Father will lift the excommunications (how exactly that is worded I have no thoughts, but I do not think it will effect anything.) Lefebvre's name will be cleared in some fashion. 2)The Tridentine Mass will be freely offered. However, as Al pointed out, the bishop still has jurisdiction over his diocese so this will be tricky. The eventual outcome will be some kind of canonical structure like an apostolic administration, that would protect those priests and faithful who desire the Latin Mass from vindictive bishops. The first step though will be acknowledgement by Pope Benedict that the Trid. Mass was never abrogated and may be said freely (as a general principle) so long as one has permission to say Mass in general from a local ordinary. I also think Rome will demand a sign of faith on the part of Bishop Fellay. In my opinion a good first step would be putting a muzzle on Bishop Williamson (amd anyone who would like to join him).
Cam42 Posted August 31, 2005 Posted August 31, 2005 [quote name='qfnol31' date='Aug 30 2005, 02:17 AM']Are you sure he thinks the Holy Father is weak? I've seen another translation that uses force instead of strength... [right][snapback]704798[/snapback][/right] [/quote] That is what the report says. So yes, I am sure. And using force in that context is saying the same thing.
cmotherofpirl Posted August 31, 2005 Posted August 31, 2005 [quote name='popestpiusx' date='Aug 31 2005, 07:23 AM']EENS, Much has happened since November. Be careful what you bet on. It seems to me (and coming from my SSPX friends as well) that reunion is highly likely so long as both sides play it straight and narrow with these negotiations. My predictions (not in this order): 1)The Holy Father will lift the excommunications (how exactly that is worded I have no thoughts, but I do not think it will effect anything.) Lefebvre's name will be cleared in some fashion. 2)The Tridentine Mass will be freely offered. However, as Al pointed out, the bishop still has jurisdiction over his diocese so this will be tricky. The eventual outcome will be some kind of canonical structure like an apostolic administration, that would protect those priests and faithful who desire the Latin Mass from vindictive bishops. The first step though will be acknowledgement by Pope Benedict that the Trid. Mass was never abrogated and may be said freely (as a general principle) so long as one has permission to say Mass in general from a local ordinary. I also think Rome will demand a sign of faith on the part of Bishop Fellay. In my opinion a good first step would be putting a muzzle on Bishop Williamson (amd anyone who would like to join him). [right][snapback]706085[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Why would you lift the excommunication??? The guy disobeyed the Church, and it should stay. What about the vindictive trads who already think they know better than the Magisterium? They need to start with some humility and obedience before the Church does any reconciliation.
thessalonian Posted August 31, 2005 Posted August 31, 2005 (edited) Knowing how my brother is about Rome I expect a rift in SSPX if the reunificaion happens. Some will follow and some will not. There will be claims of Fellay selling out. I pray that the reunification happens. EENS, have you read Patrick Madrid's "More Catholic Than the Pope"? Edited August 31, 2005 by thessalonian
Aloysius Posted August 31, 2005 Posted August 31, 2005 [quote name='Cam42' date='Aug 31 2005, 09:07 AM']That is what the report says. So yes, I am sure. And using force in that context is saying the same thing. [right][snapback]706127[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I pray that Benedict will have the strength to shepherd about 1 billion souls and put an end to prevelent heresy and heterodoxy in the Church as well. does that mean I think him to be weak? no. that means that I pray he will be strong. you are really taking it out of context... he clearly did not call the pope weak and you are being absurd arguing that he did. he said something perfectly legitimate, a prayer that indeed all Catholics should pray-- that God grant the pope the strength he needs. as for the excommunication lifting-- the orthodox excommunication was lifted-- granted it's been a thousand years but that was still a case of disobedience. while I don't agree with his actions, it was a confusing time and he became desperate; to lift the excommunication wouldn't be to say that he was right, but to say that even though he was wrong we consider him to still have been in communion with the Catholic Faith. to declare it invalid would be to admit his actions to be right-- something the pope will never do because it was disobedience and to approve of such disobedience opens the door for any bishop to create another bishop without the approval of Rome. it would be a nice gesture, and I believe Benedict would be willing to do it, to lift the excommunication granted this is explained correctly in the wording (which I have no doubt it would be). And a universal indult would be really cool : and probably, if the 1962 missal started gaining momentum throughout the church it might positively influence the currently widely abused novus ordo.. we see it everyday that people flock to these indult masses for the reverence, if a universal indult happened and these masses were closer to more people, regular novus ordo parishes might start noticing that people thirst for reverence and start making their masses the reverent things they are supposed to be.
Cam42 Posted August 31, 2005 Posted August 31, 2005 [quote name='Aloysius' date='Aug 31 2005, 09:51 AM']I pray that Benedict will have the strength to shepherd about 1 billion souls and put an end to prevelent heresy and heterodoxy in the Church as well. does that mean I think him to be weak? no. that means that I pray he will be strong. you are really taking it out of context... he clearly did not call the pope weak and you are being absurd arguing that he did. he said something perfectly legitimate, a prayer that indeed all Catholics should pray-- that God grant the pope the strength he needs. as for the excommunication lifting-- the orthodox excommunication was lifted-- granted it's been a thousand years but that was still a case of disobedience. while I don't agree with his actions, it was a confusing time and he became desperate; to lift the excommunication wouldn't be to say that he was right, but to say that even though he was wrong we consider him to still have been in communion with the Catholic Faith. to declare it invalid would be to admit his actions to be right-- something the pope will never do because it was disobedience and to approve of such disobedience opens the door for any bishop to create another bishop without the approval of Rome. it would be a nice gesture, and I believe Benedict would be willing to do it, to lift the excommunication granted this is explained correctly in the wording (which I have no doubt it would be). And a universal indult would be really cool : and probably, if the 1962 missal started gaining momentum throughout the church it might positively influence the currently widely abused novus ordo.. we see it everyday that people flock to these indult masses for the reverence, if a universal indult happened and these masses were closer to more people, regular novus ordo parishes might start noticing that people thirst for reverence and start making their masses the reverent things they are supposed to be. [right][snapback]706153[/snapback][/right] [/quote] All of your speculation is nice and since this is the Open Mic and not the debate board, I will not debate this issue. However, I am simply commenting on what the SSPX said. Simple. I am not taking it out of context, I am responding to a direct quote. Al, please don't start a fight, this is open mic. To assert that I am absurd is not only uncharitable, but also unprovable. The quote is as such.....DIRECT [quote name='Bernard Fellay']"The Society of Saint Pius X prays that the Holy Father can find the strength to put an end to the crisis of the Church in 'restoring all things in Christ'."[/quote] Bishop Fellay is assuming that the SSPX is correct and that the Church is in error. That much is simple and that much proves that it is a disobedient attitude that prevades. The only acceptable answer would have been for bishop Fellay to go into the meeting with biretta (hat) in hand and admit that he is wrong. Then he would need to do WHATEVER is necessary to make it right. The Church is not in error and the Church does NOT need to make any concession. And the Orthodox situation is a totally different scenario, from the beginning. To equate the SSPX and the Orthodox as ultimately the same thing, is not only wrong, but incredibly naive. I assume that you understand that though. Bishop Fellay is in error, the SSPX is in error, they must come home, the Church must not concede...the Church is not wrong, the SSPX is.
Aloysius Posted August 31, 2005 Posted August 31, 2005 I meant it is absurd to take that quote as meaning the Holy Father is weak, and I stand by that assertion that it is an absurd idea. There are crisises within the Church. We should pray that the Holy Father should have the strength to deal with them. That's not speculation, that's just the precise words of Fellay: "the sspx prays that the Holy Father can find the strength to put an end to the crisis of the Church in 'restoring all things in Christ'." that's all they said... and I join with the sspx on that prayer. while they may have some faulty motives and understandings behind it, it is a good prayer. I also hope and pray (and really do believe) that Benedict will be a lot more pastoral here than you are showing yourself to be in regards to this issue. there are real issues here, real confusions here, real problems here. just because the SSPX was wrong to schism doesn't mean authentic problems shouldn't be dealt with. anyway, I know the Orthodox is a much different situation, but I used that example to show that lifting an excommunication is not an admission that the excommunicated person was RIGHT. declaring an excommunication invalid would be saying they were right. lfiting the excommunication on lefebvre and pals is not saying they were never justly excommunicated, it's saying that now we're re-communicating. anyway, that's right, I don't want to start an argument. why? because #1 this is open mic #2 you are mighty mighty cam42 and you are always right. so you'll just keep repeating what you just said as if I should've just bowed down the first time you said it.
Cam42 Posted August 31, 2005 Posted August 31, 2005 [quote name='Aloysius' date='Aug 31 2005, 11:42 AM']I meant it is absurd to take that quote as meaning the Holy Father is weak, and I stand by that assertion that it is an absurd idea. There are crisises within the Church. We should pray that the Holy Father should have the strength to deal with them. That's not speculation, that's just the precise words of Fellay: "the sspx prays that the Holy Father can find the strength to put an end to the crisis of the Church in 'restoring all things in Christ'." that's all they said... and I join with the sspx on that prayer. while they may have some faulty motives and understandings behind it, it is a good prayer. I also hope and pray (and really do believe) that Benedict will be a lot more pastoral here than you are showing yourself to be in regards to this issue. there are real issues here, real confusions here, real problems here. just because the SSPX was wrong to schism doesn't mean authentic problems shouldn't be dealt with. anyway, I know the Orthodox is a much different situation, but I used that example to show that lifting an excommunication is not an admission that the excommunicated person was RIGHT. declaring an excommunication invalid would be saying they were right. lfiting the excommunication on lefebvre and pals is not saying they were never justly excommunicated, it's saying that now we're re-communicating. anyway, that's right, I don't want to start an argument. why? because #1 this is open mic #2 you are mighty mighty cam42 and you are always right. so you'll just keep repeating what you just said as if I should've just bowed down the first time you said it. [right][snapback]706213[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I love, LUV, LOVE, the charity....thanks for that. Keep building those bridges Al....
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