the Lifting of the excommunication....

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

this really isn't my area of expertise and i know the orthodox are in schism still but why was the excommunication lifted by Pope Paul VI?

God Bless,

sam

[dspen2005]

and, has it been reciprocated?

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

yeah, so whats your point?

[RC_]

Not sure of the reasoning behind lifting the excommunication, but to my knowlege it has not been reciprocated.

They still have valid sacraments, which is cool.

[dspen2005]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Aug 30 2005, 09:55 PM']yeah,  so whats your point?
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uhm.... i was asking my own question as a trailer to yours....

[Theoketos]

Why do think it was not done earlier Sam?

Edited August 31, 2005 by Theoketos

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

you mean lifting the excommunication?

[Aloysius]

this is just a thread of questions... no one has any answers

lol.. people keep answering with more questions... I love it, it's like that "Who's line is it anyway" game

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

so are you answering our question al?

hahahaha

[Apotheoun]

Pope Paul VI and Patriarch Athenagoras I of Constantinople mutually nullified the excommunications issued in the 11th century.

[p0lar_bear]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Sep 1 2005, 09:49 AM']Pope Paul VI and Patriarch Athenagoras I of Constantinople mutually nullified the excommunications issued in the 11th century.
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OK, but the question is why.

I could offer a guess, but I don't actually know off-hand...

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='p0lar_bear' date='Sep 1 2005, 06:38 AM']OK, but the question is why.

I could offer a guess, but I don't actually know off-hand...
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For the safest answer you would need to ask Paul VI and Athenagoras I, but of course they are both dead.

Nevertheless, the most likely reason for nullifying the excommunications is that it would allow theological dialogue between the two communities.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

but if they lifted the excommunication than..................... wouldn't that mean they wouldn't be excommunicated anymore (when in reality they should be)

[p0lar_bear]

Since no one else has really offered an answer, I'm going to venture a guess. (Mind you it is a guess, I have no resources to support what I'm saying)


While there are obviously theological differences, on of the biggest obstacles to reunification has been the bitterness and hard feelings between the Catholic and Orthodox Churches. It could be argued, and I think with some validity, that the sack of Constantinople did as much or more to solidify the breach than any of the theological disputes. The habit of the west to belittle the Eastern traditions and liturgies and the behavior of the Latins after conquering Byzantium was in many cases reprehesible. Of course, the Orthodox Churches were not innocent either. All this led to deep-seeded, cultural bitterness, particularly on the side of the Orthodox (let's face it, most the Latins didn't care enough to be bitter...).

Lifting the excommunications was, if nothing else, a mutual sign of good faith and willingness to heal the schism. By lifting the excommunications, both sides recognized the validity and dignity of the traditions, liturgies, and histories of the other. It opened the door to further dialogue (which, btw, was pushed heavily by Pope Pius XI). It may have also cleared away one of the canonical obstacles to a mass reunification, but I'm not sure if it would matter either way for that...


Again, I am fully willing to acknowledge I may be completely off on this.

[p0lar_bear]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Sep 1 2005, 11:37 AM']but if they lifted the excommunication than..................... wouldn't that mean they wouldn't be excommunicated anymore (when in reality they should be)
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Lifting the general excommunications doesn't mean that there is no longer a schism. The schism obviously still exists and neither side was trying to deny that by lifting the excommunications.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

ok..... i know but than i conclude that their was no real point to lifting the excommunication.

[p0lar_bear]

Well, the Vatican website has a copy of the joint delcaration which lifted the excommunications [url="http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/speeches/1965/documents/hf_p-vi_spe_19651207_common-declaration_en.html"]here[/url].

I haven't read it, but it may help you to understand their reasons.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

thanks

[p0lar_bear]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Sep 1 2005, 02:02 PM']thanks
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You're welcome. I hope it helps.