God's Judgement and Pagan Nations

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Sep 8 2005, 01:43 PM']I may be the only one in the conversation that does.  Others just use chastisement as the easy answer.  Its like trying to comfort someone who lost a loved one by saying "Its God's will". 
Nothing that you have stated is anything but personal opinion DJ.  Please show me somewhere scripturally or theologically that states that one can avoid the Chastisement of the Almighty if you have enough cash on you.  You won't be able to.  Chastisements from God are not something that can be avoided.
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First I wuld argue no one in N.O. escaped Chastisment, the entire city is after all being emptied everyone has been chastised some simply more than others. That said there are 2 options.

Those who had money and " escaped" did so because it was the active will of God thatthey do so and the money was incedental.

or

One accepts that money might very well allow one to run from the Chastisment of God and therefore reduce the said persons chances of salvation. This infact could be part of the reason why it is so difficult for a rich man to get into heaven.

I would argue that the very quality of being rich inherintly makes on avoid the routine chastisment that the poor endure daily, and that the suffering the poor endure causes them to either become more Faithful and pure or to embrace evil. The Rich have no such daily test and therefore have not the same stimulous to purification.

[Aloysius]

we should take all natural disasters as chastisements... not necessarily for one thing in particular because we cannot know such things about the Mind of God, but ultimately it is a result of our being expelled from the Garden of Eden where there would be no such storms.

It is not a direct sodom and gomorrah type punishment... unless you are of the opinion that there was not even ONE just man in the entire city of New Orleans. (there's Catholics there, there had to be at least ONE and thusly God would have spared the city if He was planning some direct brimstone and fire deal of hurricanity)

but ultimately all storms are chastisements from God, and the people of New Orleans and the people of the United States should take this moment to reflect on what their culture is and how they act. sort of like a near-death experience like "i could have been killed in such a storm" but more in the Catholic sense where it's "God will take us at any time" deal...

it is a chastisement, in that through all suffering we are purified. we must be strengthened by the suffering. the city of New Orleans and indeed the entire country should feel chastised by God and re-examine its priorities and values. there is no point in speculating about the mind of God any other way.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Sep 8 2005, 02:12 PM']we should take all natural disasters as chastisements... not necessarily for one thing in particular because we cannot know such things about the Mind of God, but ultimately it is a result of our being expelled from the Garden of Eden where there would be no such storms.

It is not a direct sodom and gomorrah type punishment... unless you are of the opinion that there was not even ONE just man in the entire city of New Orleans. (there's Catholics there, there had to be at least ONE and thusly God would have spared the city if He was planning some direct brimstone and fire deal of hurricanity)

but ultimately all storms are chastisements from God, and the people of New Orleans and the people of the United States should take this moment to reflect on what their culture is and how they act.  sort of like a near-death experience like "i could have been killed in such a storm" but more in the Catholic sense where it's "God will take us at any time" deal...

it is a chastisement, in that through all suffering we are purified.  we must be strengthened by the suffering.  the city of New Orleans and indeed the entire country should feel chastised by God and re-examine its priorities and values.  there is no point in speculating about the mind of God any other way.
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He didn't spare sodom for the sake of Lot.

[Jaime]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Sep 8 2005, 02:13 PM']He didn't spare sodom for the sake of Lot.
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He also didn't spare Lot for being a CEO of a major company.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Sep 8 2005, 10:53 PM']He also didn't spare Lot for being a CEO of a major company.
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Are you saying that Lot wasn't chastised by the destruction of Sodom?

[son_of_angels]

Let me try to make my position clear again. All disasters, sufferings, etc. come about as a result of sin, not neccessarily any definable person's sin, but sin nonetheless.
Sin does not care whether or not a person is poor or rich, but God's grace does. Sin does not care if the person it kills is a child or adult, but Jesus does.

Sure, innocent people died, suffered, and were hurt because of sin. THAT'S THE POINT. After all, the most innocent Person in the world died because of sin.

To this extent, suffering is always a way to remind us of the ravages of sin, and to accept them, either as a Cross of penance and contrition, or as despair. Through despair God lays low the nations, and crushes the peoples in his wrath.

Just think about this way. For the faithful, innocent Catholics who endure this suffering as coming about because of sin and as the will of God, it will be a lot less Purgatory to have to worry with.

[Jaime]

I'm in no way disagreeing about the fact that disasters are the result of sin. That is an accepted point.

What I object to is the idea that when something horrific happens, people jump on the chastisement bandwagon. Because there is a huge difference. I understand that people want to try to make sense of a disaster of this magnitude. But saying that it is a chastisement is simply not a logical or theological response. Its "pull it out of your..... air" theology. That's why DJ can't come up with any scriptural reference or theological reference that backs him up.

When children died of smallpox, they said it was God's will. When they found a cure for it they called it science.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote]When children died of smallpox, they said it was God's will. When they found a cure for it they called it science. [/quote]

what?

and I have given a scriptual referance.

[Jaime]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Sep 9 2005, 02:19 PM']what?

and I have given a scriptual referance.
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I hear that a lot from you when we debate.

And yet I see nothing related to scripture.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Sep 9 2005, 02:37 PM']I hear that a lot from you when we debate. 

And yet I see nothing related to scripture.
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Many of the rich escaped from the babylonian captivity, they are mentioned in the book of Kings, do you not think the captivity was a chastisment.

[son_of_angels]

[quote]When children died of smallpox, they said it was God's will. When they found a cure for it they called it science.
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That is because, this side of the fall, people are ungrateful little creatures, and God puts up with them. The least we can do is put up with Him.

[Jaime]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Sep 9 2005, 02:39 PM']Many of the rich escaped from the babylonian captivity, they are mentioned in the book of Kings, do you not think the captivity was a chastisment.
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1. You could be more specific. There are two books and I really don't feel the need to do your research for you

2. if you are referring to this passage

[quote] In the eighth year of the reign of the king of Babylon, he took Jehoiachin prisoner. 13 As the LORD had declared, Nebuchadnezzar removed all the treasures from the temple of the LORD and from the royal palace, and took away all the gold articles that Solomon king of Israel had made for the temple of the LORD. 14 He carried into exile all Jerusalem: all the officers and fighting men, and all the craftsmen and artisans—a total of ten thousand. Only the poorest people of the land were left.[/quote]

Then no they didn't escape. They were led away as prisoners.

If you are referring to this passage

[quote]In the seventh month, however, Ishmael son of Nethaniah, the son of Elishama, who was of royal blood, came with ten men and assassinated Gedaliah and also the men of Judah and the Babylonians who were with him at Mizpah. 26 At this, all the people from the least to the greatest, together with the army officers, fled to Egypt for fear of the Babylonians.[/quote]

Then no it clearly states everyone


Honestly Don, I don't particularly feel like debating your side as well as mine. Especially when you don't have a leg to stand on.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Sep 9 2005, 03:59 PM']1.  You could be more specific.  There are two books and I really don't feel the need to do your research for you

2. if you are referring to this passage
Then no they didn't escape.  They were led away as prisoners. 

If you are referring to this passage
Then no it clearly states everyone
Honestly Don, I don't particularly feel like debating your side as well as mine.  Especially when you don't have a leg to stand on.
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Actually I was thinking of another I ill find it for you later, the NFP thread has consummed all my spare time.

[Jaime]

[quote name='son_of_angels' date='Sep 9 2005, 03:46 PM']That is because, this side of the fall, people are ungrateful little creatures, and God puts up with them.  The least we can do is put up with Him.
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The point of my example is that something cannot be "God's will" one minute and a "solution of science" the next.

Oh and bump above the pointless old polls. Harumph

[son_of_angels]

Indeed. So either an event is an act of science or one of God's will? An act reasonably explained, or one with divine intervention?

Or can it be both? Can Katrina have formed by the collision of warm air and cold air over the Gulf, and yet also be a punishment for sin?

[Jaime]

There is Divine law and below that is natural law. Natural law is in place because God put it there. It is God's will that the laws of motion were put in place. It is free will that has corrupted the system.

Nature's law however is a far cry from the chastisements of the Almighty.

[son_of_angels]

So free will corrupts? I recall fre will being the great example of God's love towards us.

Let me ask you this. When can you actually be absolutely certain of the "active will" of God?

[son_of_angels]

Let me also ask you this, do you think, before the fall of man, that hurricanes would have destroyed entire cities killing thousands?

[Jaime]

[quote name='son_of_angels' date='Sep 10 2005, 11:55 AM']So free will corrupts?  I recall fre will being the great example of God's love towards us.

Let me ask you this.  When can you actually be absolutely certain of the "active will" of God?
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Yes free will corrupts. When we choose to turn away from grace, we cause things to be out of balance. And yes free will is one of the greatest gifts God has ever given us. Why would you think the two ideas would be mutually exclusive?

As for being certain, except for what I've read in scripture, I don't know. But you can tell when it isn't the active will of God. Like Katrina for example.

Sometimes bad things happen. That's it.

[Jaime]

[quote name='son_of_angels' date='Sep 10 2005, 11:57 AM']Let me also ask you this, do you think, before the fall of man, that hurricanes would have destroyed entire cities killing thousands?
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I don't think there were any hurricanes in paradise.