are these syllogisms valid?

[Ziggamafu]

1.

a. Christ has ultimate power and all authority.
b. Christ delegated his authority to the Apostles.
c. Therefore, the Apostles had ultimate power and all authority.

2.

a. Christ appointed Peter as leader of the Apostles.
b. The Apostles ordained men to succeed their offices.
c. Therefore, the successor of Peter is the leader of them all.

[Ziggamafu]

hmm...first revision:

1.

a) Christ has absolute authority over doctrinal interpretation and Church government.
b) Christ delegated his authority to the united Apostles.
c) Therefore, the united Apostles had absolute authority over doctrinal interpretation and Church government.

2.

a) Christ appointed Peter as leader of the Apostles.
b) The Apostles ordained men to succeed their offices.
c) Therefore, the successor of Peter’s office is the leader of all other successors.

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' date='Sep 3 2005, 08:42 AM']hmm...first revision:

1.

a) Christ has absolute authority over doctrinal interpretation and Church government.
b) Christ delegated his authority to the united Apostles.
c) Therefore, the united Apostles had absolute authority over doctrinal interpretation and Church government.[/quote]
correct.


[quote]2.

a) Christ appointed Peter as leader of the Apostles.
b) The Apostles ordained men to succeed their offices.
c) Therefore, the successor of Peter’s office is the leader of all other successors.
[right][snapback]709482[/snapback][/right][/quote]
you forgot two steps:

[color=red][b]a) Peter was one of the Apostles of Jesus[/b][/color]
b) Christ appointed Peter as leader of the Apostles.
c) The Apostles ordained men to succeed their offices.
[color=red][b]d) These successors have the same authority as the original apostles.[/b][/color]
e) Therefore, the successor of Peter is the leader of [color=red][b]the successors of the other apostles.[/b][/color]

[Ziggamafu]

[quote name='phatcatholic' date='Sep 3 2005, 08:58 AM']correct.
you forgot two steps:

[color=red][b]a) Peter was one of the Apostles of Jesus[/b][/color]
b) Christ appointed Peter as leader of the Apostles.
c) The Apostles ordained men to succeed their offices.
[color=red][b]d) These successors have the same authority as the original apostles.[/b][/color]
e) Therefore, the successor of Peter is the leader of [color=red][b]the successors of the other apostles.[/b][/color]
[right][snapback]709492[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

ok...how about this?

1.

a.Christ has absolute authority over doctrinal interpretation and Church government.
b.Christ delegated his authority to the united Apostles.
c.Therefore, the united Apostles had absolute authority over doctrinal interpretation and Church government.

2.

a.Christ appointed the Apostle Peter as leader of the other Apostles.
b.The Apostles passed down their own authority to other men to succeed their offices.
c.Therefore, the successor of Peter’s office is the leader of all other successors of the Apostles.

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' date='Sep 3 2005, 09:22 AM']2.

a.Christ appointed the Apostle Peter as leader of the other Apostles.
b.The Apostles passed down their own authority to other men to succeed their offices.
c.Therefore, the successor of Peter’s office is the leader of all other successors of the Apostles.
[right][snapback]709510[/snapback][/right][/quote]

i think the last step would be clearer if you stated it like this:

c. Therefore, the successor of Peter is the leader of the successors of the other Apostles

[Ziggamafu]

thanks, phat. what do you think are the best scripture passages I can use for each premise and conclusion?

[cmotherofpirl]

a.Christ has absolute authority over doctrinal interpretation and Church government.
b.Christ delegated his authority to the united Apostles.
c.Therefore, the united Apostles had absolute authority over doctrinal interpretation and Church government.

[color=red] Christ didn't delegate ALL His authority, only some of it [/color]

Edited September 5, 2005 by cmotherofpirl

[Cure of Ars]

I agree with cmotherofpirl. I would also say that the Apostles are protected from teaching error in regards to faith and morals by the holy Spirit. They do not have the power to change the deposit of faith.

[journeyman]

CMom - are you combining both sets of statements into a single series of statements?

what happens when the Apostles are no longer present? phatcatholic & Ziggamafu were trying to formulate language incorporating apostolic succession

what happens when the Apostles are no longer united? At the Council of Jerusalem, they reached agreement. At later councils (and/or papal elections), the spirit was not so quick to provide a solution.

this formulation appears to permit to the Apostles the internal or organizational power to make the Bishop of Rome the first among equals . . . while phatcatholic & Ziggamafu were working from a concept of divine institution