Men who act like women, Women, who act like men.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Sep 4 2005, 07:23 PM']I was going to get to that.

In these debates, I think people try to complicate the obvious.  Most people recognize "masculine" or "feminine" when they see it. 

What I am talking about as a problem is balantly effeminate behavior/manners in men (or masculine behavior in women). 

This is not the same as bringing in stereotypical behaviors to confuse the issue.  One does not have to be an ultra-macho, six-pack swilling-in-front-the-football-game, wife-beating slob in order to be a "real man."  And women do not all have to be dainty weaklings who spend all their time shopping for clothes and visiting the hair-dresser.

Manly:  Strong (especially in character), assertive, chivalrous (respects and protects those weaker than himself), courageous, hard-working, exercises gentle authority.

Effeminate:  homosexuality, feminine walk, gestures, or manner of speaking, wearing feminine dress, jewelry or makeup, softness (avoidance of hard work and difficulty), , excessive love of luxury, excessive fastidiousness about one's dress or appearance, cowardliness

Womanly:  Nurturing, loves and cares for others above herself, respects her own feminine beauty, chastity, gently submissive to her man

Masculine:  Lesbianism, striving for dominance over men, masculine dress or grooming, disregard for family, vulgarity in speech and behavior
[right][snapback]710934[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

I think your notions are way too stereotypical. We are all a mixed lot of traits and characteristics.

[Socrates]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Sep 4 2005, 07:26 PM']I think your notions are way too stereotypical.  We are all a mixed lot of traits and characteristics.
[right][snapback]710992[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

Could you explain more specifically what you have a problem with in my post? I was asked to specify, and I tried to explain/give some examples.

Edited September 5, 2005 by Socrates

[photosynthesis]

Socrates - so chastity is right for women? and it's "masculine" to have vulgar speech? NO one should be speaking in a vulgar manner or being unchaste, regardless of whether they're male or female.

[quote name='Raphael' date='Sep 4 2005, 11:00 AM']A woman, however, will generally do more of the "oh, it'll be okay."  When I go to a woman with a problem, and she starts being like, "okay...let's look at the options," I tend to say, "you know, I've already thought of all the options...I just need a hug."
[right][snapback]710513[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
is it manly for a guy to ask for a hug?

I don't know... maybe I'm just unfeminine or something, but in problem solving I'm a lot more likely to say "let's look at all the options" and not say "here, have a hug." I'd rather be a journalist than homeschool my kids (after they got old enough to go to school). I'd rather read a book than go shopping. I was one of two women working in my college's IT department last summer. I guess it's not feminine to fix computers. While I have no interest in sports, cars, beer or anything like that, i think women should develop their "feminine genius" and use their minds.

I think if a woman wants to appreciate football, or know how to fix cars, or program computers, than what's wrong with that?

There has to be a line drawn somewhere. I would tend to focus less on the behavior, but on the inherent personality characteristics and tendencies that underlie behavior.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

[quote]Well, look whose back on...hi Sam! smile.gif When did this happen?

Kristina
[/quote]

Hey Kristina!

how have you been. i came back a month ago maybe. i haven't seen you around the phorum. I would PM but now that I am a phishy (i shouldn't be) i can't PM you.

God Bless,

sam

[track2004]

So are you (WK) just saying women ought to stay at home and take care of the family else they are acting against God? Or that men must be the main bread winner? Is wearing pants to masculine, and if so when did it become so because men wore tunics in Jesus time? This idea of masculine and feminine is so subjective. I, a girl, want to be a psychologist. This will probably mean working 40+ hours a week and quite possibly earning more than my husband. The difference between gender and characteristics is immense. Nothing says women have to be feminine and men have to be masculine, they are just social constructions of what it means to be a certain gender.

[photosynthesis]

[quote name='track2004' date='Sep 5 2005, 12:33 AM']So are you (WK) just saying women ought to stay at home and take care of the family else they are acting against God?  Or that men must be the main bread winner?  Is wearing pants to masculine, and if so when did it become so because men wore tunics in Jesus time?  This idea of masculine and feminine is so subjective.  I, a girl, want to be a psychologist.  This will probably mean working 40+ hours a week and quite possibly earning more than my husband.  The difference between gender and characteristics is immense.  Nothing says women have to be feminine and men have to be masculine, they are just social constructions of what it means to be a certain gender.
[right][snapback]711208[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
I agree with you, to a point. The church does not teach that women have to stay at home all the time. Women have a lot to contribute to society. However, it's problematic to argue that gender roles are entirely socially constructed. God created us male and female for a reason, and both are a reflection on who God is. Gender characteristics also stem from biological differences, which were created by God.

[philothea]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Sep 4 2005, 06:23 PM']Manly:  Strong (especially in character), assertive, chivalrous (respects and protects those weaker than himself), courageous, hard-working, exercises gentle authority.

Effeminate:  homosexuality, feminine walk, gestures, or manner of speaking, wearing feminine dress, jewelry or makeup, softness (avoidance of hard work and difficulty), , excessive love of luxury, excessive fastidiousness about one's dress or appearance, cowardliness

Womanly:  Nurturing, loves and cares for others above herself, respects her own feminine beauty, chastity, gently submissive to her man

Masculine:  Lesbianism, striving for dominance over men, masculine dress or grooming, disregard for family, vulgarity in speech and behavior
[right][snapback]710934[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
Thank you for clarifying.

[White Knight]

[quote name='philothea' date='Sep 4 2005, 05:42 PM']Like Paladin asked, what are you considering to be masculine or feminine behaviors?
[right][snapback]710908[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]


Men who play with dolls and women who Behave too much like men's behavior. Women who smoke cugairs, who dress, and litterally act like men.


[quote name='track2004' date='Sep 4 2005, 10:33 PM']So are you (WK) just saying women ought to stay at home and take care of the family else they are acting against God?  Or that men must be the main bread winner?  Is wearing pants to masculine, and if so when did it become so because men wore tunics in Jesus time?  This idea of masculine and feminine is so subjective.  I, a girl, want to be a psychologist.  This will probably mean working 40+ hours a week and quite possibly earning more than my husband.  The difference between gender and characteristics is immense.  Nothing says women have to be feminine and men have to be masculine, they are just social constructions of what it means to be a certain gender.
[right][snapback]711208[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]


No I'm not saying that its against God, I'm saying Men & Women sould not exchange roles to EXTREME Points. Men sould not act so Girly to the point where they seem Almost homosexual like, and Women sould not act so manly to an extreme point where they seem homosexual. I'm talking about Extremes here, There is a line that Men & Women sould not ever pass, due to their roles that God gave them.

Edited September 5, 2005 by White Knight

[Norseman82]

I like the good ole days when men wore the tattoos and women wore the earrings....

[White Knight]

I have to agree with that Norseman82.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Norseman82' date='Sep 5 2005, 12:39 AM']I like the good ole days when men wore the tattoos and women wore the earrings....
[right][snapback]711458[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

[FlyLikeABird]

As a woman who is occasionally refered to as a "tomboy", though I seem to be growing out of it now, I think some of our behaviours are simply learned from our upbringing. I, for instance, grew up as one girl amongst a bevy of boy cousins, my best friend in grades 1, 2 and 3 was a boy (he moved away in grade 4) and I was Daddy's girl in terms of trying to be like him.

But I do not nor ever have tried to "act" like a man. I behave in a masculine fashion occasionally because I have not been taught otherwise.

[track2004]

I just want to mention, because I think it's a sterotype that is misleading, not all 'masculine' girls or 'feminine' boys are homosexual. Yes, there are some, but the assumption that all gay kids act like the opposite sex or that any kid who acts like the opposite sex is gay are both false assumptions.

And I do agree with Fly, my best friends have been boys my whole life. Actually my friend David and I discussed this over the summer. We decided, because we grew up in mixed company, we didn't participate in some typical girl or boy activities. Neither of us ever really walked down the street talking about potential significant others. Neither of us discussed much of the awkward girly or boy-y (?) puberty things. We kind of didn't do many things that my girlfriends or his guyfriends did because we were together. So now we're closer to the middle than masculine or feminine.

[FlyLikeABird]

It would be "boy-ish" track and thank you. I would like to add to my statement that I am heterosexual. Not that it should matter really but just to dispel possible rumours.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='track2004' date='Sep 4 2005, 11:33 PM']So are you (WK) just saying women ought to stay at home and take care of the family else they are acting against God?  Or that men must be the main bread winner?  Is wearing pants to masculine, and if so when did it become so because men wore tunics in Jesus time?  This idea of masculine and feminine is so subjective.  I, a girl, want to be a psychologist.  This will probably mean working 40+ hours a week and quite possibly earning more than my husband.  The difference between gender and characteristics is immense.  Nothing says women have to be feminine and men have to be masculine, they are just social constructions of what it means to be a certain gender.
[right][snapback]711208[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

Masculine and feminine are NOT just social constructs, but inate characteristics in each of us. Nurture has a lot to do with which ones will be manifested in each of us.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Sep 5 2005, 09:41 AM']Masculine and feminine are NOT just social constructs, but inate characteristics in each of us. Nurture has a lot to do with which ones will be manifested in each of us.
[right][snapback]711767[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]


I'm working on something regarding this as we speak. I'll post a link to it later.

[Semalsia]

So what actually is the problem? If a woman is masculine, then so what? What are the bad consequenses of this? I don't think that playing with dolls (excluding action figures, I assume) or a different manner of speaking for a guy are sins, so what exactly is someone doing wrong when they don't follow the gender roles?

[quote name='Socrates']submissive to her man[/quote]

Why am I not surprised ...

[quote name='track2004']I just want to mention, because I think it's a sterotype that is misleading, not all 'masculine' girls or 'feminine' boys are homosexual. Yes, there are some, but the assumption that all gay kids act like the opposite sex or that any kid who acts like the opposite sex is gay are both false assumptions.[/quote]

Exactly. I was going to point out the same thing.

[quote name='cmotherofpirl']Masculine and feminine are NOT just social constructs, but inate characteristics in each of us. Nurture has a lot to do with which ones will be manifested in each of us.[/quote]

If they were innate, then nurture shouldn't have anything to do with them.

People follow them, because they have been told from childhood that they should follow them. Nurture is a way reinforce the social construct.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[Laudate_Dominum]

Well, I've decided to post one tiny snippet of the massive, relentless pile of data that I've been gathering and structuring. This is just a tiny teaser of what is in the works. I'm tackling the issue from every conceivable angle and hope to arrive at some solid conclusions.

Androgens, produced by the testes in males and the adrenal cortex in both sexes, appear to have a profound organizational effect on early neural development. Female rats exposed neonatally to androgens will mount other rats, which is a typical male mating behavior. Likewise, male rats deprived of androgen from an early age will exhibit lordosis (the famale rat mating posture), which is a typical female mating behavior.
[i]Facts from: "Biological Bases of Behavior, Psychosexual Differentiation" and "A Role for Ovarian Hormones in Sexual Differentiation of the Brain"[/i]

This is one of hundreds of pieces of experimental data that I've compiled that indicate the role of innate biology (neuroanatomy, prenatal and pubertal hormones, etc) in the development of masculine and feminine behaviour patterns and traits.

I hope to finish soon.

God bless.

[Ora et Labora]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Sep 4 2005, 10:24 PM']Hey Kristina!

how have you been. i came back a month ago maybe. i haven't seen you around the phorum. I would PM but now that I am a phishy (i shouldn't be) i can't PM you.

God Bless,

sam
[right][snapback]711194[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

Hi Sam,

I dont go on phorums much, but I might go on the debate table more...ya I tried PMing you.

I know I'm deprived, but, whats phisy?

Kristina