Seminarians with same-sex attractions

[Socrates]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1045448' date='Aug 17 2006, 12:12 PM']
I guess God calling them REPROBATES is another nice term and doesn't *really mean* what it seems to mean, right?

1Corithians 6:9-10: "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, [b][u]nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,[/u][/b] Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God." (Emphasis ours)

This verse has been translated in many ways among the 25 English versions of the Bible that we have analyzed. The two activities of interest here have been variously translated as:

bullet effeminate. In the English language, this covers a wide range of male behavior such as being unmanly, lacking virility. One might think of the characters "John," the receptionist on NYPD Blue, or "Jack" on Will and Grace.

bullet homosexuals, variously described as:
[b]
bullet "men who practice homosexuality," (ESV);
bullet "those who participate in homosexuality," (Amplified);
bullet "abusers of themselves with men," (KJV);
bullet "practicing homosexuals," (NAB);
bullet "homosexuals," (NASB, CSB, NKJ, The Great Book: The New Testament in Plain English);
bullet "homosexual perversion," (NEB);
bullet "homosexual offenders," (NIV);
bullet "liers with mankind," (Rhiems); and
bullet "homosexual perverts." (TEV)[/b]
[/quote]
Yes, Eutychus, homosexuality is clearly and plainly condemned by both the Bible and the Catholic Church. No argument with you there.
Neither myself nor any orthodox Catholic defends this abomination.
I have consistantly argued against those liberals who would defend homosexuality in the past.
[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?s=&showtopic=54841&view=findpost&p=1024724"][b]Here's a recent example.[/b] [/url]

If you're expecting people to argue in favor of homosexuality, you've come to the wrong place.
(Of course, it is quite evident from your posts that you pay no attention to what either Catholic posters here nor the Church actually says, but merely want to attack straw-men and make pointless rants against the Church.)

[Eutychus]

[quote]If you're expecting people to argue in favor of homosexuality, you've come to the wrong place.
(Of course, it is quite evident from your posts that you pay no attention to what either Catholic posters here nor the Church actually says, but [b][u]merely want to attack straw-men [/u][/b]and make pointless rants against the Church.) [/quote]

[b]
Homosexuality in the priesthood is now a [u]STRAWMAN[/u][/b]????

Goodness man, how many BILLIONS of dollars does it take for you to understand this is NOT a creation of fundies that want to attack your church? Frankly most fundies don't give a rats backside about your church, they consider you pagans basically NOW, and they don't follow the ins and outs and problems of the Catholic Church, honestly.

We are that rarity, former Catholics with a love for Catholics and thereby want to stay current, follow things, and hopefully jumpstart a few minds that were shut down in "complete docility" to men that should be tossed out on their hind ends, not adored and adulated.

[b]STRAWMEN?[/b]

Still stunned that you would even have the chutzpah to call homosexuality in the priesthood that, literally sitting here in amazement.

[b]STAWMAN?[/b]

I just GOOGLED two words, PRIEST and HOMOSEXUAL....and it returned 340,000 replies. Yeah, I'm just inventing[b] [u]STRAWMEN [/u][/b]HERE no truth to this one, nosiree, just my fevered imagination, don;'t look, don't see, don't think, don't ACT. The credo of the online Catholic apology maker { not apoloGIST }

[i]Sad, sad, really heartrendering sad. [/i]

Edited August 18, 2006 by Eutychus

[Socrates]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1045722' date='Aug 17 2006, 06:36 PM']
[b]
Homosexuality in the priesthood is now a [u]STRAWMAN[/u][/b]????

Goodness man, how many BILLIONS of dollars does it take for you to understand this is NOT a creation of fundies that want to attack your church? Frankly most fundies don't give a rats backside about your church, they consider you pagans basically NOW, and they don't follow the ins and outs and problems of the Catholic Church, honestly.

We are that rarity, former Catholics with a love for Catholics and thereby want to stay current, follow things, and hopefully jumpstart a few minds that were shut down in "complete docility" to men that should be tossed out on their hind ends, not adored and adulated.

[b]STRAWMEN?[/b]

Still stunned that you would even have the chutzpah to call homosexuality in the priesthood that, literally sitting here in amazement.

[b]STAWMAN?[/b]

I just GOOGLED two words, PRIEST and HOMOSEXUAL....and it returned 340,000 replies. Yeah, I'm just inventing[b] [u]STRAWMEN [/u][/b]HERE no truth to this one, nosiree, just my fevered imagination, don;'t look, don't see, don't think, don't ACT. The credo of the online Catholic apology maker { not apoloGIST }

[i]Sad, sad, really heartrendering sad. [/i]
[/quote]
You're pretending like we're [b]for[/b] homosexuals in the priesthood!
If you've read a single one of my posts on this topic, you'll see that I'm 100% opposed!

Any homosexuals in the seminary should be immediately thrown out, and any homosexual priests should be defrocked!

It's that Fundy reading-comprehension problem acting up again!

Sheesh! . . .

(And if you regard Catholic priests as nothing more than pagan witch-doctors or whatever, why should any of this even matter to you?)

And the Catholic Church agrees with me on this.
[quote]Quite opportunely the Fifth Lateran Council [1512-1517] issued this decree: "Let any member of the clergy caught in that vice against nature . . . be removed from the clerical order or forced to do penance in a monastery (chap. 4, X, V, 31). So that the contagion of such a grave offense may not advance with greater audacity by taking advantage of impunity, which is the greatest incitement to sin, and so as to more severely punish the clerics who are guilty of this nefarious crime and who are not frightened by the death of their souls, we determine that they should be handed over to the severity of the secular authority, which enforces civil law.
Therefore, wishing to pursue with the greatest rigor that which we have decreed since the beginning of our pontificate, we establish that any priest or member of the clergy, either secular or regular, who commits such an execrable crime, by force of the present law be deprived of every clerical privilege, of every post, dignity and ecclesiastical benefit, and having been degraded by an ecclesiastical judge, let him be immediately delivered to the secular authority to be put to death, as mandated by law as the fitting punishment for laymen who have sunk into this abyss."[/quote]

[OLAM Dad]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1045363' date='Aug 17 2006, 10:34 AM']
A custom?

Come on, that makes it sound optional. IT IS A DOGMA, or it is treated as if it were one. Try getting married as a priest. Unless you marry a Moonie, and are a Cardinal { Milingo} you will be out on the street in a nuns lunchbreak.

In fact, there is NOTHING that the papacy cracks down harder on than that. You can sacrifice animals at mass { the Bishops of South Africa } you can practice Voodoo and be a priest. You can worship at Hindu shrines as a priest. You can do ANYTHING as a priest and stay a priest....BUT....make your consort an honest woman.

THAT, is the ONLY sin the church will act on within seven days, EVERY TIME.

Now, even REAL PROCLAIMED DOGMA's don't get that sort of reaction when you break them, now do they?

Smooch.
[/quote]

I won't bother to scold you for acting immature or for posting factual error. I will however ask you to look at this link.

[url="http://www.diogh.org/ParishPages/parishpages-new/ourladyofwalsingham-houston.htm"]http://www.diogh.org/ParishPages/parishpag...ham-houston.htm[/url]

This web page is from the Archdiocese of Galveston-Houston and the parish listed is Our Lady of Walsingham. The Pastor, Rev. James T. Moore is MARRIED. Furthermore, GASP, he has children.

This is proof that the Church not only has married priests but that they also serve in pastoral assignments.

Sorry to burst your anti-Catholic bubble.

[Budge]

Big Whoop...

a number of priests you can count on one hand, who got married before and converted in...

What percentage are they of Catholic priests...1%?

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='Budge' post='1045782' date='Aug 17 2006, 09:12 PM']
Big Whoop...

a number of priests you can count on one hand
[/quote]
The same thing can be said about Priests who are responsible for sexual abuse..

Doesn't matter who they are, it's still a sick, sick thing.

[catholicinsd]

If you ban homosexuals there would be like 10 priests left in the USA.

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1045722' date='Aug 17 2006, 08:36 PM']I just GOOGLED two words, PRIEST and HOMOSEXUAL....and it returned 340,000 replies. Yeah, I'm just inventing[b] [u]STRAWMEN [/u][/b][/quote]
I just googled two words, FUNDAMENTALIST and HOMOSEXUAL...and it returned 719,000 replies. I googled EVANGELICAL and HOMOSEXUAL...and it returned 1,160,000 replies. Wow...big deal.

[CatholicCid]

[quote name='Mateo el Feo' post='1048504' date='Aug 22 2006, 09:00 PM']
I just googled two words, FUNDAMENTALIST and HOMOSEXUAL...and it returned 719,000 replies. I googled EVANGELICAL and HOMOSEXUAL...and it returned 1,160,000 replies. Wow...big deal.
[/quote]

I got 673,000 and 1,020,000 but safe search is on

[Eutychus]

[quote] If you ban homosexuals there would be like 10 priests left in the USA.[/quote]

Isn't that the truth!

During the fracas leading up to the seminary inspections early this year, we monitored the gay sites, since they had a particular interest in this matter, to see what they were saying...

One wag, from the gay community of Rome, said "Vatican City, the ONLY majority homosexual nation on earth!" And honestly, I rather believed they were letting out a truth that the Curia would rather have not known.

[Akalyte]

ban ethem. I dont care how many priests we have left. Gay priests havent given anything to God's church.

[Anomaly]

Better to have 10 good priests and no molestors than 90 fair priests, 10 good priests and 1 molestor priest.

[Eutychus]

Just listen to Paul describing the NORMATIVE standards for clergy in his letters to his protoge Timothy, and your problems would decrease immensely, almost overnight.

Humans being human, the problems will NEVER completely go away, but you have stacked the deck in the wrong direction by ONLY allowing those who are ABNORMAL to seek the job in the first place.

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1048716' date='Aug 23 2006, 06:24 AM']
Isn't that the truth![/quote]Actually, no it's not.

[Eutychus]

You are FOR homosexuals in the priesthood then?

Why?

Just read Romans wherein Paul lays out the reasons why homosexuals { INTRINTSICALLY DISORDERED as your guys put it } are totally unsuitable for leadership roles in Gods plan of salvation.

[quote]Romans 1:21 (KJV) Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful;[u] but became vain in their imaginations,[/u] and their foolish heart was darkened.

22[color="#990000"][b][u] Professing themselves to be wise, they became geniuses,[/u][/b][/color]

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24 Wherefore [u]God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:[/u]

25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27[color="#990000"] [b]And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, [i]burned in their lust one toward another;[/i][/b] [/color]men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in [their] knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

31 [u]Without understanding,[/u] covenantbreakers, [u]without natural affection,[/u] implacable, unmerciful:[/quote]

It does not restrict it to ACTS note, it covers LUSTS too, LUSTS towards other men. And THAT dear sir, is the "Same Sex Attraction" even if not acted out upon with each other.

Now coupled with all the other verses, it is perfectly clear, that making such men leaders in the church is a path to the problems and shame that has been so evident in the past decades.

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1048809' date='Aug 23 2006, 10:46 AM']You are FOR homosexuals in the priesthood then?

Why?[/quote]Where do you come up with this stuff?

Edited August 23, 2006 by Mateo el Feo

[Franimus]

Once again, Eutychus makes absolutely no sense, and repeats arguments by rote, ignoring what we say in response, just throwing out slogans at us, repeating the same thing over and over again as though we're completely in the wrong and he's completely right, EVEN IF WE AGREE. Typical overzealous anti-Catholic.

[Socrates]

[quote name='catholicinsd' post='1048463' date='Aug 22 2006, 10:30 PM']
If you ban homosexuals there would be like 10 priests left in the USA.
[/quote]
Nonsense. I myself personally know more than ten priests who are definitely not homosexual.

Celibacy does [b]not[/b] equal homosexuality.

Edited August 27, 2006 by Socrates

[Anomaly]

[quote name='catholicinsd' post='1048463' date='Aug 22 2006, 10:30 PM']
If you ban homosexuals there would be like 10 priests left in the USA.
[/quote] Are you saying almost all priests are homos? Arey you saying that the 10 hetero priests are the mistakes? Are you saying God created homos so they would be priests?

[Didymus]

The difference between #1 and #2 is that some heterosexual seminarians may struggle with chastity, but this is natural, and it takes only mortification of the flesh and prayer. Homosexuality is not natural and not healthy (needs psychological help.) Thus, because it is an unhealthy mind orientation, those with it should not be allowed in. It is not a sin merely to be homosexual, and that is why it cant be fixed with chastity. The individual's mind would still not orientated correctly and he would not at that time be wise choice for a priest in the Church

of course, a repeated pattern of uncontrolled, unchaste heterosexual activity should also be grounds for expulsion or even a turning away.

Edited September 5, 2006 by Didymus