argent_paladin vs. laudate_dominum

[Laudate_Dominum]

I decided to create this thread in this forum because its more a discussion of doctrine than a debate (since I assume we both accept Catholic doctrine). Your post:

[quote name='argent_paladin' date='Sep 14 2005, 12:22 AM']I will debate with you perhaps the greatest and most intricate subject in all of theology: reconciling grace and free will.

"[b]Whence does efficacious grace (gratia efficax), which includes in its very concept the actual free consent of the will, derive its infallible effect; and how is it that, in spite of the infallible efficacy of grace, the freedom of the will is not impaired?[/b] It is evident that, in every attempt to solve this difficult problem, Catholic theologians must safeguard two principles: first, the supremacy and causality of grace (against Pelagianism and Semipelagianism), and second, the unimpaired freedom of consent in the will (against early Protestantism and Jansenism). For both these principles are dogmas of the Church, clearly and emphatically defined by the Council of Trent. "

But I will only defend it if I may take the Thomist position of Ibanez: starting with the preeminence of grace.
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[Laudate_Dominum]

sorry I mispelled your name.

off by one blasted character.

[Laudate_Dominum]

I'm still trying to formulate my own stance.. To give a bit of a heads up, I shall attempt to argue the more [i]scientia media[/i] based approach, and I am a fan of Scheeben in matters pertaining to grace.

Since you thought of the topic, feel free to post your thesis and opening statement at your leisure.

[phatcatholic]

i look forward to reading this discussion.

LD, make sure you alert argent to this thread

[argent_paladin]

I am turning in my thesis, the product of four years of work, tomorrow. I will give an opening statement on Monday (after I check out some books on the subject from the library). If I forget, please pm me. In the meantime, here are links to relevant Catholic Encyclopedia articles, so readers can have some background:
[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06710a.htm"]Controversies on Grace[/url]
[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02247a.htm"]Domingo Banez[/url]

Actually, I also wouldn't mind having a discussion of probabilism vs. probabiliorism. I am a probabiliorist, which puts me in the minority.
[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12441a.htm"]Probabilism[/url]

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='argent_paladin' date='Sep 14 2005, 02:56 PM']I am turning in my thesis, the product of four years of work, tomorrow. I will give an opening statement on Monday (after I check out some books on the subject from the library). If I forget, please pm me. In the meantime, here are links to relevant Catholic Encyclopedia articles, so readers can have some background:
[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06710a.htm"]Controversies on Grace[/url]
[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02247a.htm"]Domingo Banez[/url]

Actually, I also wouldn't mind having a discussion of probabilism vs. probabiliorism. I am a probabiliorist, which puts me in the minority.
[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12441a.htm"]Probabilism[/url]
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Ahhh!! You've been researching this for four years!! You're gonna kick my butt. :
That's alright though.. I wanna debate this topic.

Whenever you're ready you can make the first move. After you present your position I'll object to it and present my case. I'm probably going to be all over the place in the course of the debate since my own knowledge of the subject is rather ecclectic, and my own position is tentative.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='argent_paladin' date='Sep 14 2005, 02:56 PM']Actually, I also wouldn't mind having a discussion of probabilism vs. probabiliorism. I am a probabiliorist, which puts me in the minority.
[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12441a.htm"]Probabilism[/url]
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A former roommate of mine, who was once a Dominican, discerned he wasn't called, became a philosophy professor for a while, and is now in law school (you guys would get along great!), would no doubt love to debate that topic with you (he aced the LSAT, he's a genius). I believe his masters thesis involved that. But I used to nod off when he would want to kick around ideas regarding this subject.. haha I don't think I'm the guy to debate that one. Too bad my buddy isn't on phatmass. :