God's existence and evil

[Myles Domini]

I was posting this on the thread you began as Kilroy was in the process of locking it. So I'll reproduce here what I was writing back to you since you appear to have started responding to some of the contents of my reply to your initial query.
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I have missed a couple of pages of this thread and so I might say things that have already been said. However, I will say that since God is perfect its impossible for Him to be evil since evil is not a substance its the privation of a something (good) that should be present. Bad health is not the opposite of good health it is the absence of normal health, when the body stops working as its designed to we call it sickness. Likewise darkness is not the opposite of light it is the absence of light there is no such colour as black. All colours are contained within white light which can be suitable defracted by a prism. Blackness as a quality subsisting in and of itself does not exist. There is no such thing as a negative substance and since God cannot logically lack anything He cannot possess within Himself any evil.

How do we know God cannot logically lack anything? Read St Thomas Aquinas

Here's the hyperlink, enjoy

[url="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/100203.htm"]Summa Theologica First Part Question 2 Article 3[/url]

PS) St Thomas Aquinas on [url="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/104800.htm"]evil[/url] and its [url="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/104900.htm"]cause[/url]. You may find this informative

[Chris of Zewe]

You seem to be misunderstanding the concept of all-around perfection, which I'm told is a trait that your God possesses (in your minds). For example, something can be [i]perfectly good[/i], or [i]perfectly [b]anything[/b][/i], really. Everytime I've asked one of you about your God's degree of perfection, I've been told that he's just "perfect", sans adjective. This implies (to me at least), that your God is perfectly good, perfectly evil, perfectly 17, the perfect llama, whatever, because he's just "perfect." In order to be "perfect", he would have to be [b]everyone's interpretation of the word[/b], or else he's imperfect as a result of the fact that he doesn't live up to their definition of the word, among other, more nit-picky reasons that I'm not quite sure how to word.

[quote]There is no such thing as a negative substance and since God cannot logically lack anything He cannot possess within Himself any evil.[/quote]

How do you figure? If you owe me $3, that's the opposite of my owing you $3.

[quote]How do we know God cannot logically lack anything? Read St Thomas Aquinas [/quote]

If your God can't lack anything, then he is indeed, as I said, also perfectly evil, in addition to perfectly [i]everything else[/i]. The way I see it, all of these things cancel out, and your God is a neutral figure at best who does not interfere with the goings-on of the universe, because that would upset his neutral balance. In essence, he's a divine cripple.

[Chris of Zewe]

On another note, Kilroy is afraid of me.

[Brother Adam]

And [i]that[/i] is the stupidest thing I've read all day...er.... all year for that matter.

[Kilroy the Ninja]

[quote name='Chris of Zewe' date='Sep 18 2005, 08:56 AM']On another note, Kilroy is afraid of me.
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Whatever.

[Chris of Zewe]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Sep 18 2005, 08:58 AM']And [i]that[/i] is the stupidest thing I've read all day...er.... all year for that matter.
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I sort of made it up as I went. I see nothing wrong with it though.

Kilroy...what would you do if I built a small golden statue of you and worshipped it?

[Brother Adam]

Say that your being aggitating just for the hell of it?

[Chris of Zewe]

I'm arguing for the sake of arguing. It's Sunday morning and I can't sleep and I have no work today and no normal humans are awake yet. What do you propose that I do?

[Kilroy the Ninja]

[Myles Domini]

I'm sorry Chris there is no such thing as a negative substance. If I owe you $3 then its because you dont have $3. You are not holding a negative three that we'll exchange. There is nothing in your hand. You know the opposite by the lack of it. Thats not interpretation its objective like I illustrated with the subject of light and darkness and good health and bad health. You can look at them as opposites if you want to but you cannot look at them as anything other than objective substance and objective privation.

Objectively darkness is the absence of white light, which contains all coloured light in the spectrum, objectively bad health is the absence of normal good working body functions, objectively all bad's are the absence of some good and thus God cannot logically be evil because God has within Himself all possible completion, perfection whatever you wanna call it. Bottom line is, in God there is no unactualised potentiality, no lack of anything and since there is no lack there can be no badness. Since all bad's are a form of lacking what should be present.

PS) Did you read the links from St Thomas' summa that I posted for you Chris? Given that its Sunday morning and you've got nout else to do you could at least humour me, right?

[angels111]

First, there is good and there is evil. Remember what Christ said, that those who are for him are against him and that he is the way, the truth and the life? Evil exists and always has, if you have any questions, refer to Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot. Evil is a conscious act, a word or an omission. We were commanded to love one another and when we do not, we sin. Consciously sinning is evil. We have the ability to choose are actions, this is of God.

[Myles Domini]

Angels 111 was your last post in reference to mine because I was confused by the point you were trying to make. It sounded like you were trying to correct me? In which case I will have to respond by saying principally you've misunderstood me.

I was not saying that sin isnt real and evil isnt real, I was saying that evil is not a thing or a force that subsits in and of itself. God did not create evil, there is no thing called evil, evil is what we call that state which occurs when good is lacking. Evil can never be a default if it could evil could exist in its own right and thats impossible.

Destruction can only exist where there is something to destroy, lying can only exist where there is truth to pervert etc.etc. The only way we can know evil is by the absence of a good. We know evil by the asbence of the goods that God has made.

Secondly and thus accordingly I must disagree with your statement that evil has always existed. Both as a philosopher and a believer. As a philosopher because evil as I keep highlighting is the absence of a good that exists and as a believer I have this confirmed for me by Genesis wherein God sees all that He has created and says its 'very good'. Sacred Scripture reminds us that God did not create evil and that evil in its origin is a perversion of the goods of God's making.

[Theoketos]

Hey guess what God is prefectly evil!



What I mean is that God is prefectly with out any evil...

Evil is not a prefection.

Edited September 18, 2005 by Theoketos

[dairygirl4u2c]

See, I've had problems with this evil is really lack of good argument because.... it seems like [b]if we don't have the problem of evil, then we have the problem of a lack of good.[/b]

Edited September 18, 2005 by dairygirl4u2c

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='Chris of Zewe' date='Sep 18 2005, 08:56 AM']You seem to be misunderstanding the concept of all-around perfection, which I'm told is a trait that your God possesses (in your minds).  For example, something can be [i]perfectly good[/i], or [i]perfectly [b]anything[/b][/i], really.  Everytime I've asked one of you about your God's degree of perfection, I've been told that he's just "perfect", sans adjective.  This implies (to me at least), that your God is perfectly good, perfectly evil, perfectly 17, the perfect llama, whatever, because he's just "perfect."  In order to be "perfect", he would have to be [b]everyone's interpretation of the word[/b], or else he's imperfect as a result of the fact that he doesn't live up to their definition of the word, among other, more nit-picky reasons that I'm not quite sure how to word.
How do you figure?  If you owe me $3, that's the opposite of my owing you $3.
If your God can't lack anything, then he is indeed, as I said, also perfectly evil, in addition to perfectly [i]everything else[/i].  The way I see it, all of these things cancel out, and your God is a neutral figure at best who does not interfere with the goings-on of the universe, because that would upset his neutral balance.  In essence, he's a divine cripple.
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thats a terrible arguement........if you are perfect you cant be 2 things at once........perfectly good and perfectly evil.........secondly there is no such thing as perfect evil....using perfect to describe evil is a contradiction. That pretty much ruins your whole arguement.

Edited September 18, 2005 by infinitelord1

[Kilroy the Ninja]

Just as an FYI, it appears that Chris of Zewe has been put on "read-only" status - banned that is.

[Myles Domini]

[quote]See, I've had problems with this evil is really lack of good argument because.... it seems like if we don't have the problem of evil, then we have the problem of a lack of good.
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There can be no such problem since I've continually highlighted good is the natural state of things as God made them. Good is not known in contrast to evil (argueably its better appreciated) as evil is known when good is lacking, good things subsist in and of themselves.

Sacred Scripture graphically illustrates this in the first three chapters of Genesis. Adam and Eve can appreciate the goods of creation without knowing anything about evil. Man can still experience happiness, joy, wonder, awe, beauty and all the other goods in the world without experiencing the lack of these things. The Bible seems to teach that this can make men complacent yes but it never states that without evil one cannot understand the goodness of one's natural state e.g. you can still feel good about being fit and healthy without having the experience of being terminally ill.

Since good is the default state of creation then there can never be a lack of good. If good didnt exist, nothing would exist, since God himself is perfect goodness and all other goods are of His making.

[hierochloe]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' date='Sep 18 2005, 03:19 PM']See, I've had problems with this evil is really lack of good argument because.... it seems like [b]if we don't have the problem of evil, then we have the problem of a lack of good.[/b]
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Problem of evil [b]=[/b] problem of a lack of good, right? They are the same thing, so if there's no evil, there's only good. Yay!

*it's been a long weekend.

[White Knight]

[quote name='Chris of Zewe' date='Sep 18 2005, 09:04 AM']I'm arguing for the sake of arguing.  It's Sunday morning and I can't sleep and I have no work today and no normal humans are awake yet.  What do you propose that I do?
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God's Fullness and infinate attributes go well past human logic, to understand God fully and completely to the point where it makes absolute perfect sense, is impossible with our sin clouded mind sets, to Understand God completely is something we wait for in the afterlife, and even then theres still debate on this.


No this is not a excuse, this is the Answer, and if you refuse to accept it then you have just cut yourself off from the answer.

[DeeDee]

I was watching a movie not too long ago which dealth with the plague in Europe and the Inquisition and it had a line in it that stuck with me. "Evil exists so that we may know the mercy of God."