Music Ministry - where to start

[DeeDee]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Sep 21 2005, 09:25 AM']Not quite.
The Mass is also us standing at the foot of the cross with Mary and St John, we are [u][b]present[/b][/u] at the SACRIFICE of the crucifixion.
He is not dying again, WE are there at the cross.
Think about the music that is appropriate for that.
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Well, I can only tell you about the Masses I have attended here and in different countries, celebrated by priest and bishops, all Catholic. I can't say anything more, and I'm not trying to convince anybody of anything. I'm simply relating my experiences.

[dUSt]

[quote name='DeeDee' date='Sep 21 2005, 11:21 AM']As I understand it, Christ died once and for all, and the Mass is a celebration in remembrance of his sacrifice. He is not dying again. [right][snapback]732649[/snapback][/right][/quote]
Unfortunately, I believe that this is what most Catholics think, and may be the root cause of irreverance in a lot of masses today.

The mass is [b]not[/b] a celebration in [b]remembrance[/b] of His sacrifice, it [b]is[/b] His sacrifice. He died once and for all, but through the mass we are participating in this actual sacrifice. It's not something that just happend in the past--we are there.

With this understanding, I would hope most people would think about what type of music is and is not appropriate. Yes, the mass is a celebration, a celebration of death, which gives us life.

[Theoketos]

The death of God as man for our sins so that we may rise with him
In the mass the church is new born again as it was birthed
on the knoll of the skull
every day
every hour
power with power.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='DeeDee' date='Sep 21 2005, 12:35 PM']Well, I can only tell you about the Masses I have attended here and in different countries, celebrated by priest and bishops, all Catholic. I can't say anything more, and I'm not trying to convince anybody of anything. I'm simply relating my experiences.
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I know you are just relating your experiences, but I am trying to point out of theology of what you are attending.
Mass is a re-presentation of the sacrifice of Calvery. It doesn't mean we are doing it over again, it means we are present at the actual crucifixion at every single Mass we are at. You are standing at the foot of the cross with Mary and St John while Jesus is dying for you. You are also at the heavenly banquet with all the Saints and angels in attendance. One must not emphasize one aspect to the detriment of the other.
So what music you choose is important.

Edited September 21, 2005 by cmotherofpirl

[Cre8d4Youth]

[quote name='dUSt' date='Sep 20 2005, 02:59 PM']hoover,

I would suggest that you use your musical talents outside of mass. I hope I don't come off as rude as saying this, but I don't know any teen that goes to mass to hear the music, no matter what kind it is. There is a parish that I go to every once in a while that has a Lifeteen mass. Loud drums, guitars, upbeat, all the things you mentioned. Do you think teens are drawn to the mass because of this? If so, is this why we [b]want[/b] them drawn to mass?

This is my point. Mass is not about the music. It's about Christ, specifically, the Eucharist. If the "music" even begins to overshadow this at any time we have lost. Sadly, I believe that most Lifeteen programs and charismatic parishes have allowed this to already happen.

Why not give teens something they CAN'T get anywhere else? Why not expose them to chant? By trying to compete with the secular musical trends in the mass, all we're doing is giving people an inferior rendition of music they may or may not like in the first place. Let's stick to what we ARE good at and what makes us unique... I guarantee it'll draw even more people to [b]Christ[/b].
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Reading what you've posted dUST, I don't disagree with anything. But my only question is, are they trying to get the kids to Mass for the music? Or are they trying to create an atmosphere where the younger generations feel comfortable and open to worship? I have worked with youth groups for the past eight of nine years. (Took a break in the middle for family!) I see this trend over and over again in various forms and in various theaters.
I'm not saying it's right, nor am I saying it's wrong. I think that we, as purveyors of the teachings of Christ being passed on to these young ones, need to realize that sometimes they just worship differently. And sometimes we need to realize that teaching them the "old ways" will not alienate them as much as we seem to think it will.
Youth work is tough. Probably one of the toughest professions and volunteering out there. We have to walk the tightrope of keeping the kids interested, open to Christ, and at the same time, not pissing off the rest of the Church, and making sure not to water down the Gospel because we don't think the kids can "handle" it. "Balance of Power" in the strictest sense.
I took me a long time to get where I am today. I recall as a youth...ok, so it wasn't all THAT long ago, that there were songs that really opened my heart to worship. But other youths around me would groan and say "Oh, man, not THAT song again!" So, each person is open to different music, to different forms of worship. Many people I know would NOT be comfortable raising hands in church, and yet others that are. I smile when Father asks those that are comfortable to do so in prayer over ppl he has up front for blessing. You see maybe half the congrefation raise tentatively, then slowly, a few more, and eventually, a few more timidly raise. The point is, to be in a way that opens your heart wide to the Love and Sacrifice of Christ Jesus our Saviour. How that happens for you personally is between you and Him. It is none of my business or my concern.

In closing I don't think teens are "drawn there" for the music. But I do feel that if it's comfotable for them, they are more likely to stay for [b]HIM[/b].

Edited September 22, 2005 by Cre8d4Youth

[jiyoung]

I feel like I sort of have to disagree a bit. Still being classified as youth myself, I've been at a lot of masses that target our age group. I find though that these masses tend to be more entertainment than worship. I'm fine with praise music and such, but I don't think it's appropriate to the mass. Not only is it distracting (and I really do think it is), but it's not really conducive to a worshipful atmosphere the same way that chant, etc. is. I find that the old pieces that the Church used for so long are better at fostering an atmosphere appropriate for mass.

I was going to switch to one church because I have a lot of friends there, but their mass simply is not that reverent. Under the din of guitars and drums there are a lot of people just socializing. People at this church are very focused on the music--they define it as a very integral part of their identity as Catholics. But the music ministry is almost more performance-oriented than anything else--it's like all they're missing are the disco lights (which they set up for their praise nights). This can be an occasion to sin for them, in my opinion. When I was in that kind of music ministry, each mass became an opportunity to show off my voice. I didn't mean for it to be that way, but that's what it became. The music was so similar to the type of music I would sing for shows that in my mind the two became one and the same.

I really don't see a problem with praise music--I feel it's a great outlet for people to use their talents to praise God. However, I really don't think it's appropriate for mass. It's distracting for the parishioners, and it sets up the music ministry to become prideful. Things like chant are timeless and beautiful and worshipful. They unite us with Catholics across the centuries and serve to help us reflect on what's happening in the mass.

[hooverbloob]

Ok, so to get back to my original question...if I were to persue an outreach music program, where would the target audience be? Where to teens hang out nowadays? Or perhaps the focus should be for the 21+ crowd and see if we can play at bars? I just don't know where to go.

[DeeDee]

[quote name='hooverbloob' date='Sep 22 2005, 03:49 PM']Ok, so to get back to my original question...if I were to persue an outreach music program, where would the target audience be? Where to teens hang out nowadays? Or perhaps the focus should be for the 21+ crowd and see if we can play at bars? I just don't know where to go.
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HA! I can understand your frustration. This thread really did take a turn didn't it? My apologies! I talked with a friend of mine last night about your question. We came up with a few ideas.

So your youth group leader doesn't want any more guitar players in the Lifeteen group? Can you start another group, maybe in the church hall or auditorium? Is there a local community center, or YMCA? Is there a local Catholic Charities organization in your area? They might have some ideas.. It you really want to take a leap in a music ministry, try ministering to teens in a youth detention center, or teens in group homes, homes with developmentally disabled teens, or hospitals that have teen cancer patients. For the hospitals call the hospital chaplain. Most hospitals have one. Catholic Charities might be able to help you with the other centers. Many blessings!

[hooverbloob]

[quote name='DeeDee' date='Sep 23 2005, 11:03 AM']HA! I can understand your frustration. This thread really did take a turn didn't it? My apologies!  I talked with a friend of mine last night about your question. We came up with a few ideas.

So your youth group leader doesn't want any more guitar players in the Lifeteen group? Can you start another group, maybe in the church hall or auditorium? Is there a local community center, or YMCA? Is there a local Catholic Charities organization in your area? They might have some ideas.. It you really want to take a leap in a music ministry, try ministering to teens in a youth detention center, or teens in group homes, homes with developmentally disabled teens, or hospitals that have teen cancer patients. For the hospitals call the hospital chaplain. Most hospitals have one.  Catholic Charities might be able to help you with the other centers.  Many blessings!
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Thanks for the suggestions! I also spoke with a friend of mine last night and he also suggested retreats and such. He thought that coffee houses might also be a good start. I really appreciate all the ideas thus far! Keep them coming!

[dUSt]

[quote name='Cre8d4Youth' date='Sep 22 2005, 09:31 AM']In closing I don't think teens are "drawn there" for the music.  But I do feel that if it's comfotable for them, they are more likely to stay for [b]HIM[/b].
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I think there is an appropriate place for music that draws the youth in.... outside of mass. Why not have an after mass concert, or a pre-mass rally with any kind of music you want? Setup the drums, electric guitars, etc in the gym and have a praise and worship jam afterwords? In fact, how about have a youth mass with absolutely no music at all, except for the responses, therefore shortening it and really emphasising the actual consecration?

If I'm a teen, I'd rather go to a 45-minute reverent mass followed by a 1/2 hour jam out concert after mass than an 1hour and 15 minute mass with irreverent music worked into it.

Phatmass plays many events, retreats, etc. The absolute best programs combine the exciting music with the holy, reverent atmosphere without mixing the two. For example, a recent event we played at had a few hours of really dope music, fun activities, etc. After all that, there was an hour of adoration--very reverent, silent, peaceful adoration. Then, the night ended with a few more upbeat songs, and that was it. There's no reason why we, as Catholics, have to infuse modern musical trends [b]into[/b] the mass, when we have all the time we want before and after mass! Why do we try to cram it all into one hour, when that hour should be focused exclusively on the sacrifice of the Eucharist?

Anyway. My point is that upbeat music and the sacred can be balanced, just not at the same time.

You'd be amazed on how kids are effected by simply witnessing the [b]contrast[/b] between modern music and traditional music. When a teen spends time praising God with upbeat music, and then transitions into a mass with traditional, sacred, chant, the message of what is happening in the mass is made crystal clear. The contrast in the music illustrates that the mass is removed from this secularized world in such a way that heaven comes down and touches earth. The mass is made unique from their every day life and truly stands out as something special. I've witnessed this realization in so many youth, I can't deny it.

[toledo_jesus]

[quote name='dUSt' date='Sep 20 2005, 03:59 PM']By trying to compete with the secular musical trends in the mass, all we're doing is giving people an inferior rendition of music they may or may not like in the first place.
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I am 100% in agreement with you. Mass is sacred, therefore sacred music should be used.

[dUSt]

[quote name='Cre8d4Youth' date='Sep 22 2005, 09:31 AM']In closing I don't think teens are "drawn there" for the music.  But I do feel that if it's comfotable for them, they are more likely to stay for [b]HIM[/b].
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I think there is an appropriate place for music that draws the youth in.... outside of mass. Why not have an after mass concert, or a pre-mass rally with any kind of music you want? Setup the drums, electric guitars, etc in the gym and have a praise and worship jam afterwords? In fact, how about have a youth mass with absolutely no music at all, except for the responses, therefore shortening it and really emphasising the actual consecration?

If I'm a teen, I'd rather go to a 45-minute reverent mass followed by a 1/2 hour jam out concert after mass than an 1hour and 15 minute mass with irreverent music worked into it.

Phatmass plays many events, retreats, etc. The absolute best programs combine the exciting music with the holy, reverent atmosphere without mixing the two. For example, a recent event we played at had a few hours of really dope music, fun activities, etc. After all that, there was an hour of adoration--very reverent, silent, peaceful adoration. Then, the night ended with a few more upbeat songs, and that was it. There's no reason why we, as Catholics, have to infuse modern musical trends [b]into[/b] the mass, when we have all the time we want before and after mass! Why do we try to cram it all into one hour, when that hour should be focused exclusively on the sacrifice of the Eucharist?

Anyway. My point is that upbeat music and the sacred can be balanced, just not at the same time.

You'd be amazed on how kids are effected by simply witnessing the [b]contrast[/b] between modern music and traditional music. When a teen spends time praising God with upbeat music, and then transitions into a mass with traditional, sacred, chant, the message of what is happening in the mass is made crystal clear. The contrast in the music illustrates that the mass is removed from this secularized world in such a way that heaven comes down and touches earth. The mass is made unique from their every day life and truly stands out as something special. I've witnessed this realization in so many youth, I can't deny it.

[jiyoung]

[quote name='dUSt' date='Sep 23 2005, 01:58 PM']I think there is an appropriate place for music that draws the youth in.... outside of mass. Why not have an after mass concert, or a pre-mass rally with any kind of music you want? Setup the drums, electric guitars, etc in the gym and have a praise and worship jam afterwords? In fact, how about have a youth mass with absolutely no music at all, except for the responses, therefore shortening it and really emphasising the actual consecration?

If I'm a teen, I'd rather go to a 45-minute reverent mass followed by a 1/2 hour jam out concert after mass than an 1hour and 15 minute mass with irreverent music worked into it.

Phatmass plays many events, retreats, etc. The absolute best programs combine the exciting music with the holy, reverent atmosphere without mixing the two. For example, a recent event we played at had a few  hours of really dope music, fun activities, etc. After all that, there was an hour of adoration--very reverent, silent, peaceful adoration. Then, the night ended with a few more upbeat songs, and that was it. There's no reason why we, as Catholics, have to infuse modern musical trends [b]into[/b] the mass, when we have all the time we want before and after mass! Why do we try to cram it all into one hour, when that hour should be focused exclusively on the sacrifice of the Eucharist?

Anyway. My point is that upbeat music and the sacred can be balanced, just not at the same time.

You'd be amazed on how kids are effected by simply witnessing the [b]contrast[/b] between modern music and traditional music. When a teen spends time praising God with upbeat music, and then transitions into a mass with traditional, sacred, chant, the message of what is happening in the mass is made crystal clear. The contrast in the music illustrates that the mass is removed from this secularized world in such a way that heaven comes down and touches earth. The mass is made unique from their every day life and truly stands out as something special. I've witnessed this realization in so many youth, I can't deny it.
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I agree wholeheartedly. I know I was really struck by the difference. There is something that is so much more majestic about such a mass, and I really think that that's the way mass should be. Popular music comes and goes. If it can be used as an instrument (heh, no pun intended) to draw people in, then that's great. But the mass is timeless and the music should be too.

...so when is this Phatmass youth program coming out? I know you were talking about it once before. I'd use it over Lifeteen any day.

[Piccoli Fiori JMJ]

[quote name='dUSt' date='Sep 23 2005, 12:58 PM']I think there is an appropriate place for music that draws the youth in.... outside of mass. Why not have an after mass concert, or a pre-mass rally with any kind of music you want? Setup the drums, electric guitars, etc in the gym and have a praise and worship jam afterwords? In fact, how about have a youth mass with absolutely no music at all, except for the responses, therefore shortening it and really emphasising the actual consecration?

If I'm a teen, I'd rather go to a 45-minute reverent mass followed by a 1/2 hour jam out concert after mass than an 1hour and 15 minute mass with irreverent music worked into it.
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That actually sounds very effective... VERY.