Distinction in Lust

[Nicole8223]

[quote name='Raphael' date='Sep 23 2005, 11:54 AM']I never, ever said that women didn't...in fact, I explicitly said that they did.  I said there was overlap.  I know women who are addicted to pornography.  I know that it's not exclusive to males.

Regardless, greed is want of treasure...lust is want of power.

I mean, one could say that I'm being greedy when I lust, too.  If I'm lusting, then I'm saying, "I want her and I want her to be all mine" in a way which does not respect her as a person.  That sounds like greed, but it's lust.  Why?  Because the reason I want her is not to enjoy having lots of goods, but rather to exert some sense of power (mastering her).

I will say that greed and lust are very closely tied, but there is a subtle distinction.  Likewise, we can be greedy sexually without lusting, and we can lust without being greedy, but I would say the distinction is here:

Woman disrespects a man by taking advantage of his money so she can have lots of things: greed.

Woman disrespects a man by taking advantage of his status so she can be "in": lust.

Distinction of desire for things and desire for power.
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I wasn't accusing you of being one of those who assumes, Micah. Sorry if it came across that way!

I just don't define lust as a want of power. To me that would be pride: wanting something for your build-up of yourself. I think of lust as wanting something as an object for use for your gratification, specifically in a sexual sense.

If you asked me which of the capital sins would I define as "a want for power," I would think of greed, pride, or envy first.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Nicole8223' date='Sep 23 2005, 01:30 PM']I wasn't accusing you of being one of those who assumes, Micah.  Sorry if it came across that way!

I just don't define lust as a want of power.  To me that would be pride: wanting something for your build-up of yourself.  I think of lust as wanting something as an object for use for your gratification, specifically in a sexual sense.

If you asked me which of the capital sins would I define as "a want for power," I would think of greed, pride, or envy first.
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...but we even use the term "lust for power" lol...

I would say that pride is found in all of these sins...in fact, I would venture to say that all the seven deadly sins are so intertwined that it's hard to have a situation where at least several are not present if one is.

However, lust is not merely carnal...that much is certain. Yes, it can be the case that women lust physically after men (I've seen it myself), but the tendency in women related to abusing men in regard to their manhood itself seems to fall more into the category of having "Mr. Right" to make others jealous, etc. This is most certainly prideful at its core, as all sin is, but since I would define lust primarily as that which abuses another in as much as their sexuality, then it is still a form of lust. It is, of course, involved with greed as well. Greed, however, seeks to take or possess something at the disadvantage of someone else. Greed speaks to the "wanting to make others jealous" because it says, "I have him and you don't!" It seems to me that greed in this situation is proper not to the social status part (which I was relating), but to the exclusivity part. Seeking social status, then, and having the right [i]man[/i] particularly in such a way that it's because he's a man, seems to be a form of lust, because the core of it is in having the right [i]man[/i] which makes it intrinsically sexual in nature. That is why I define it as lust and say that greed is related to the situation, but not proper to the specific sin I'm talking about.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Raphael' date='Sep 23 2005, 01:53 PM']...but we even use the term "lust for power" lol...

I would say that pride is found in all of these sins...in fact, I would venture to say that all the seven deadly sins are so intertwined that it's hard to have a situation where at least several are not present if one is.

However, lust is not merely carnal...that much is certain.  Yes, it can be the case that women lust physically after men (I've seen it myself), but the tendency in women related to abusing men in regard to their manhood itself seems to fall more into the category of having "Mr. Right" to make others jealous, etc.  This is most certainly prideful at its core, as all sin is, but since I would define lust primarily as that which abuses another in as much as their sexuality, then it is still a form of lust.  It is, of course, involved with greed as well.  Greed, however, seeks to take or possess something at the disadvantage of someone else.  Greed speaks to the "wanting to make others jealous" because it says, "I have him and you don't!"  It seems to me that greed in this situation is proper not to the social status part (which I was relating), but to the exclusivity part.  Seeking social status, then, and having the right [i]man[/i] particularly in such a way that it's because he's a man, seems to be a form of lust, because the core of it is in having the right [i]man[/i] which makes it intrinsically sexual in nature.  That is why I define it as lust and say that greed is related to the situation, but not proper to the specific sin I'm talking about.
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But what if I'm not looking for Mr. Right to make others jealous, or for personal material gain? I know I still lust. I just don't think that's the underlying cause of it.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Maria' date='Sep 22 2005, 10:04 PM']What Sojourner said sounds more like what I've heard (and even felt to some extent) -- the idea that feminine lust has to do with thinking some guy would make the perfect husband/lover, that with him she'd live happily ever after.[/quote]

That's not lust - that's naivete, or unrealistic expectations.

[quote]But I'd agree with Socrates that there definitely do seem to be some women who have the male kind of lust. But that seems more unnatural.
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That's called lesbianism.

Women can lust too - I've seen it firsthand.
Anytime a woman wants to fornicate or commit adultery or do anything lewd, she's acting lustfully.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Raphael' date='Sep 23 2005, 01:53 PM']...but we even use the term "lust for power" lol...

I would say that pride is found in all of these sins...in fact, I would venture to say that all the seven deadly sins are so intertwined that it's hard to have a situation where at least several are not present if one is.

However, lust is not merely carnal...that much is certain.  Yes, it can be the case that women lust physically after men (I've seen it myself), but the tendency in women related to abusing men in regard to their manhood itself seems to fall more into the category of having "Mr. Right" to make others jealous, etc.  This is most certainly prideful at its core, as all sin is, but since I would define lust primarily as that which abuses another in as much as their sexuality, then it is still a form of lust.  It is, of course, involved with greed as well.  Greed, however, seeks to take or possess something at the disadvantage of someone else.  Greed speaks to the "wanting to make others jealous" because it says, "I have him and you don't!"  It seems to me that greed in this situation is proper not to the social status part (which I was relating), but to the exclusivity part.  Seeking social status, then, and having the right [i]man[/i] particularly in such a way that it's because he's a man, seems to be a form of lust, because the core of it is in having the right [i]man[/i] which makes it intrinsically sexual in nature.  That is why I define it as lust and say that greed is related to the situation, but not proper to the specific sin I'm talking about.
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True, all the deadly sins are of course related (they mostly involve inordinate love of something other than God and neighbor), but they can be distinguished.
"Lust" as in "lust after power" is more of an analogy from the original meaning.

Lust = inordinate or disordered desire for sex
Greed (or Avarice) = inordinate or disordered desire for material gain.
Gluttony = inordinate or disordered desire for food or drink
Inordinate seeking of status would be tied to envy it seems to me.

[quote]Seeking social status, then, and having the right [i]man[/i] particularly in such a way that it's because he's a man, seems to be a form of lust, because the core of it is in having the right [i]man[/i] which makes it intrinsically sexual in nature.[/quote]

This is an absurd statement. By this definition, any desire for marriage would be lustful, because this involves in its core having a right man (or woman) as a man (or woman). Otherwise, there would be nothing wrong with same-sex marriage.
It is not desiring a person of the opposic sex specifically as a man or woman that would make it sinful, but the fact that this is done for one's own gain in status, rather than for love.
(This could also apply to non-sexual same-sex "friendships" -forming "friendships" for the purpose of using another for one's own personal gain.) The primary sin here is not lust.

[curtins]

wow this is all going right over my head

[Old_Joe]

[quote name='Raphael' date='Sep 21 2005, 10:32 PM']Another is to see the person, indivisible, as only a part of a larger structure, much like one would see a single ant in an ant colony.

Likewise, it would seem that the "female lust" is the opposite, the second of these...that it takes a whole man and makes him only a part of something larger...a social status, a symbol of something to be proud of, etc.
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So, I'm confused more than usual. Are you basically saying that this kind of Lust make a person seem insignificant int the scheme of things?

[Old_Joe]

[quote name='curtins' date='Sep 23 2005, 09:51 PM']wow this is all going right over my head
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could be worse. It could be hitting below the belt.

[Old_Joe]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Sep 22 2005, 09:51 PM']Lust is simply the seeking of sexual pleasure outside the blessing of marriage.
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Not necessarily. A man can rape his own wife. Is that not Lust? He's satisfying his own needs without thinking of her well-being.

[Sojourner]

OK, let’s take a moment to define terms. In Matt. 5:28, Christ says, “Everyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.”

So a really simple definition consistent with this verse would be that lust is adultery committed in the heart.

In the Theology of the Body, John Paul II expands on this definition, drawing a distinction between the theological meaning of lust and the psychological meaning of lust.

I think the way Socrates defines lust:
[quote name='Socrates']Lust = inordinate or disordered desire for sex
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fits very well with the psychological meaning of lust JP2 describes:
An intense inclination toward the object because of its particular value, and in the case considered here, its sexual value.

Biblically defined, JPII says lust is
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He draws a further distinction between lust and natural attraction – and I think we can all identify moments in which we’ve experienced a good and natural attraction and moments when we’ve experienced lust. There is a difference.

In describing this difference, JPII says lust represents a reduction:
[quote name='JPII']an intentional reduction, almost a restriction or closing down of the horizon of mind and heart. It is one thing to be conscious that the value of sex is a part of all the rich storehouse of values with which the female appears to male. It is another to “reduce” all personal riches of femininity to a single value, that is, of sex, as a suitable object for the gratification of sexuality itself. The same reasoning can be valid concerning what masculinity is to the woman …
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Proper attraction, he goes on to say, frees a man (or presumably, a woman) to be more fully who he (or she) is, opening up the range of values that encompass the person. Lust limits that range to a single value, thus reducing the person.

Socrates, Old_Joe is right that lust can happen inside marriage as well as outside. Anytime you reduce the value of the person to being solely sexual, it's lust. Therefore, you can commit adultery, even with your wife. I know this happens. I've talked to women who say they've felt "used" by their husbands -- they could sense their husbands' advances were motivated by lust. Marriage doesn't make lust OK.

[White Knight]

Does anyone believe here you can look at a woman of if you are a woman a man and not lust after them? I see women as people who have hearts and minds and who look pretty, but I dont picture them graphicyly nude or having sex with them.


[b]Can a Guy say to a Woman that shes Hot looking without having sexual thoughts? I believe so, does anyone else agree or disagree?[/b]

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='White Knight' date='Sep 24 2005, 03:41 PM']Does anyone believe here you can look at a woman of if you are a woman a man and not lust after them? I see women as people who have hearts and minds and who look pretty, but I dont picture them graphicyly nude or having sex with them.
[b]Can a Guy say to a Woman that shes Hot looking without having sexual thoughts? I believe so, does anyone else agree or disagree?[/b]
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I think it depends on the meaning of the term "hot." Generally, it means something in our culture along the lines of "too attractive not to objectify"...I think that a man could say a woman is "hot" and not be lusting, but it just wouldn't be smart unless both the man and the woman knew that he wasn't lusting in it and that he was referring to her true beauty as a person.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Sojourner' date='Sep 24 2005, 02:29 PM']OK, let’s take a moment to define terms. In Matt. 5:28, Christ says, “Everyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.”

So a really simple definition consistent with this verse would be that lust is adultery committed in the heart.
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That doesn't really define lust or adultery. Jesus was simply saying that adultery can be committed without a physical act, but He didn't say what lust actually was.

Therefore, one could still argue that lust can take various forms, one of which is a sense of power. A sense of power, for instance, is obtained when a man rapes a woman. Men who objectify women treat them like objects because they wish to exert some level of power...you reduce a woman to an object and you use her like you would use anything else you have power over. Likewise, women seem to tend toward (recognize that I'm speaking in generalities, not specifics) objectify men in such a way, in a sexual way, by manipulating emotion for the sake of keeping the "right guy" with them and under their control. It therefore seems that men tend to be oriented toward treating women as the sum of a certain amount of body parts, while women tend to be oriented toward keeping men, whole men (as opposed to parts), like putty in their hands so that they can have "the right guy" and win out in the jealousy wars that seem to me to be so common among high school girls. :

Realize, of course, that guys have their trophy girlfriends, also...and women do lust after certain parts of men...but these seem to be secondary ways for lust to be expressed, relative to gender.

[Socrates]

[quote name='White Knight' date='Sep 24 2005, 02:41 PM']Does anyone believe here you can look at a woman of if you are a woman a man and not lust after them? I see women as people who have hearts and minds and who look pretty, but I dont picture them graphicyly nude or having sex with them. [/quote]
NO, absolutely not!! Everybody is morally required to put on blindfolds whenever they are around the opposite sex!!

[quote][b]Can a Guy say to a Woman that shes Hot looking without having sexual thoughts? I believe so, does anyone else agree or disagree?[/b]
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A guy can say whatever he wants without having sexual thoughts, obviously.
However, "hot" in this sense usually means "sexually attractive."
So, unless the young woman is already your girlfriend, such a statement might tend to provoke a slap or a drink tossed in your face.

There are more tactful and gracious ways of telling a young lady she's attractive.
Just straight out telling a woman she's "hot" does not become a gentleman, and would give the impression you're just out looking for cheap sexual thrills.

Edited September 24, 2005 by Socrates

[Socrates]

[quote name='Raphael' date='Sep 24 2005, 04:07 PM']That doesn't really define lust or adultery.  Jesus was simply saying that adultery can be committed without a physical act, but He didn't say what lust actually was.

Therefore, one could still argue that lust can take various forms, one of which is a sense of power.  A sense of power, for instance, is obtained when a man rapes a woman.  Men who objectify women treat them like objects because they wish to exert some level of power...you reduce a woman to an object and you use her like you would use anything else you have power over.  Likewise, women seem to tend toward (recognize that I'm speaking in generalities, not specifics) objectify men in such a way, in a sexual way, by manipulating emotion for the sake of keeping the "right guy" with them and under their control.  It therefore seems that men tend to be oriented toward treating women as the sum of a certain amount of body parts, while women tend to be oriented toward keeping men, whole men (as opposed to parts), like putty in their hands so that they can have "the right guy" and win out in the jealousy wars that seem to me to be so common among high school girls. :

Realize, of course, that guys have their trophy girlfriends, also...and women do lust after certain parts of men...but these seem to be secondary ways for lust to be expressed, relative to gender.
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This is really all just a question of definitions. I still maintain that strictly speaking, lust refers to inordinate or sinful sexual desire. Of course, the different sins and vices are related, though.
If one's own sexual gratification is the main basis of an act or relationship, this can be said to be lustful. And both men and women can be lustful. The idea that women are non-sexual is a Victorian myth.

Using one for greed or social advancement is likewise sinful, but not primarily lust.
People can "use" each other or assert dominance over one another in ways completely unrelated to sex (friendships, partnerships, abusing busines relations, etc.) But I guess, you have a point, in how this is commonly analogously compared with rape. "Screwing people over," "buddyf***ing" and a host of other similar vulgar expressions come to mind.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Raphael' date='Sep 24 2005, 04:07 PM']That doesn't really define lust or adultery.  Jesus was simply saying that adultery can be committed without a physical act, but He didn't say what lust actually was.
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Right ... which was why I went on to provide the definitions of lust JP2 provides in TOTB. Did you actually read the rest of my post, or just stop after the first couple of lines?

[quote name='Raphael' date='Sep 24 2005, 04:07 PM']Therefore, one could still argue that lust can take various forms, one of which is a sense of power.  A sense of power, for instance, is obtained when a man rapes a woman.  Men who objectify women treat them like objects because they wish to exert some level of power...you reduce a woman to an object and you use her like you would use anything else you have power over.  Likewise, women seem to tend toward (recognize that I'm speaking in generalities, not specifics) objectify men in such a way, in a sexual way, by manipulating emotion for the sake of keeping the "right guy" with them and under their control.  It therefore seems that men tend to be oriented toward treating women as the sum of a certain amount of body parts, while women tend to be oriented toward keeping men, whole men (as opposed to parts), like putty in their hands so that they can have "the right guy" and win out in the jealousy wars that seem to me to be so common among high school girls. :

Realize, of course, that guys have their trophy girlfriends, also...and women do lust after certain parts of men...but these seem to be secondary ways for lust to be expressed, relative to gender.
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I'd agree, as I've stated on several other occasions, that lust can take different forms. However, the reality of the situation is different for women than you've been describing, at least from my own perspective and experience and that of women with whom I've had similar discussions. Most people haven't really thought through why they lust, though, so it's not a question that often comes up in conversation. Perhaps I'll bring it up to my accountability group this week and see what they all say.

[Old_Joe]

[quote name='White Knight' date='Sep 24 2005, 02:41 PM']Does anyone believe here you can look at a woman of if you are a woman a man and not lust after them? I see women as people who have hearts and minds and who look pretty, but I dont picture them graphicyly nude or having sex with them.
[b]Can a Guy say to a Woman that shes Hot looking without having sexual thoughts? I believe so, does anyone else agree or disagree?[/b]
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Do you have to say Hot? Can you something else such, pretty, cute, gorgeous, beautiful, etc? Not only does telling a girl that she's hot or sexy have the sexual connotation, but it's also very rude.

On a side note, Can you look a piece of artwork of a nude female and still not Lust?

Edited September 25, 2005 by Old_Joe

[infinitelord1]

I always thought that when jesus referred to lust as being a sin it was in reference to those who lust for those who are married.