the jews and decide

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

once agian you refuse to look at the fract that the saints' quotes i listed.

they all seem to interpret the bible verse in that way.

tell me what does the "modern" catholic church interpret it to mean?

you think any of these saints had a college education.

when you look at the council their seem to be some other heretical things taught in it that go agianst prior infallibile teaching.

[Thumper]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Oct 3 2005, 07:28 PM']once agian you refuse to look at the fract that the saints' quotes i listed.

they all seem to interpret the bible verse in that way.

tell me what does the "modern" catholic church interpret it to mean?

you think any of these saints had a college education.

when you look at the council their seem to be some other heretical things taught in it that go agianst prior infallibile teaching.
[right][snapback]744994[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

The "modern" Roman Catholic Church understands that people live within an historical context, and that even the Church Fathers and saints of the Church were not omniscient or perfect. Here's an article from First Things, hardly a liberal rag, that may help to give you some context, click on "The Jews as the Christians Saw Them" at [url="http://www.firstthings.com/menus/ft9705.html"]http://www.firstthings.com/menus/ft9705.html[/url]

It also understands Scripture as the inspired word of God, but knows that inspiration does not preclude the fact that God's word is not dictated directly, but is transmitted through human minds, that thus the context and intention of the human author is important, and exegesis must take those factors into account. Here's a link to Dei Verbum from that darn Vatican II: [url="http://www.rc.net/rcchurch/vatican2/dei.ver"]http://www.rc.net/rcchurch/vatican2/dei.ver[/url]. See especially Chapter III.

Edited October 4, 2005 by Thumper

[Socrates]

What is the point of this thread? Nowhere in the gospels does Christ curse the Jewish people. (And let us not forget, Christ, the holy family and all the original Apostles, were all Jews.)
You give the (not infallible) opinons of various saints, yet ignore the words of St. Paul in Sacred Scripture, and the words of a Church council, which you decrye as heretical because it contradicts your own opinions (or rather the opinons of certain "Rad-trad" firebrands yoy've been reading).

And would would the point be for us if Jews were cursed? Jews are called to accept Christ as are all people, and should not be treated different than other non-Christians. (We should try to evangelize them, which will not be accomplished by running around calling them a "cursed race.")

It seems that all this is is simply another desperate "Trad" attempt to prove the current Catholic Church heretical or apostate. And that's a lot of bull-hockey.

Edited October 4, 2005 by Socrates

[Thumper]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Oct 3 2005, 08:38 PM'][snip]
And that's a lot of bull-hockey.
[right][snapback]745077[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

Ah, bull-hockey! One of my favorite sports. I'm so glad they're not on strike again this year . . . .

[littlebits]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Oct 2 2005, 10:26 AM']ok next question:

are the Jewish people cursed because of the death of christ?

the bible and numerous saints have the answer to this question.

does anyone want to take a crack at it?
[right][snapback]743597[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

[littlebits]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Oct 2 2005, 10:26 AM']ok next question:

are the Jewish people cursed because of the death of christ?

the bible and numerous saints have the answer to this question.

does anyone want to take a crack at it?
[right][snapback]743597[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
Perhaps this is helpful...What image of God are we?..are we kind generous..or is this a long history..of human sacrifice in all it's variations..directly as offerings of blood to the sun god..slavery ..a cruel and abusive totalitarian ..extremes..that hide behind order as we find new ways to bump off the competition without getting caught?
Are we obsessive..stoning burning cursing others for sexual sins as though a serial killer is a better choice for forgiveness...release Barrabus..is that our cry? Are we cowards that refuse to play on a level playing field..justify cruel and perverse child molestation..and gang rapes..murders..do we practice the ways of death as to imprison and mutilate all other creatures ...WHAT IMAGE OF GOD ARE WE?
Have you ever just been stuck..nailed and imprisoned to a place as truly as Jesus was nailed and enslaved to that wooden cross..and crying out ..Why hast thou forsaken me..money and love for the children or a brother.. the nails so real..stuck..so unable to to end the pain of being so unloved...so unwelcome..and seeing the end of these days..and this schizoid existence of our good Bible names..and like a meatball..stuck because your language your culture and your name have been torn away by those who never ask..What image of God are we? Are we not all cursed? It has been said that there was a terrible complaint throughout all creation..re some killer rabbitts on the loose..wherever they went they killed maimed and mutilated the creatures..as profiteering scientists..so God made the earth...it's a hole lined with stones..and a sign that says the neighbours house..the killer rabbitts jumped right in...and they so it is not their pain..and do you take your children for a tour of the slaughter house? Are we that image..that turns away..because it's not our pain..or can we look straight into the eyes of the Christ we crucified..all have sinned..and say you don't understand..
What image of God are we?

[Cow of Shame]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Sep 29 2005, 09:18 PM']
now it also says that ALL are not responsibile at the time of christ meaning (obviously) some are.
[right][snapback]741539[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

IF [b]all[/b] are not responsible, THEN [b]some[/b] must be responsible

is not a logical statement. By [i]your[/i] initial 'logic',, you could just as equally say

IF [b]all[/b] are not responsible, THEN [b]none[/b] must be responsible

[littlebits]

[quote name='Cow of Shame' date='Oct 7 2005, 12:43 PM']IF [b]all[/b] are not responsible, THEN [b]some[/b] must be responsible

is not a logical statement.  By [i]your[/i] initial 'logic',, you could just as equally say

IF [b]all[/b] are not responsible, THEN [b]none[/b] must be responsible
[right][snapback]749559[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

In reply..although my quote may be a bit inexact Jesus said noone takes my life from me..I lay it down for my friends.
Another story I have seen on a website re Christian humour..
A man of God had set an empty bird cage on the pulpit..and began to say to the congregation..why do you think I have this empty old bird cage here?
He proceeded..this morning on my way to church..walking toward me on this dirt road was a child about 9 or ten. He was carrying this cage with 2 small birds in it.
I said to the boy what are you going to do with those birds..he said..I'm going to pull all their feathers out and hurt them in a scientific experiment
and then I'm going to feed them to my cat. My cat likes playing with them.
I said to the boy said he..can I have them? The boy said why would you want them?..they're nothing but dirty old field birds.
So I said I'll give you ten dollars for them. The boy gave me these birds and that cage.
Then I gave the birds some water and comforted them..and then I set them free. That is why this old cage is empty.
So it has been said that one day the Lord Jesus was walking along a road..and he saw Satan walking towards him. In his hand he had a cage full of people. He asked Satan what he was going to do with them..Satan replied..I'm going to use them for scientific experiments..and murder some of them..and torture others.
The Lord replied .. What could I give you for them?

Satan replied..your blood and your water and your life.
And so the Lord purchased them..that is why this cage is empty today.
With these words said..the man of god picked up the cage and walked away.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

this is great and all but it dosen't have anything to do with the Jewish People.

next question the jewish relegion is it the same relegion or a different relegion than the old Testament Relegion of Judiasim?

Dominus Vobiscum,

sam

[Cow of Shame]

[quote name='littlebits' date='Oct 9 2005, 01:12 PM']In reply..although my quote may be a bit inexact  Jesus said noone takes my life from me..I lay it down for my friends.
(etc etc)
[right][snapback]751686[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

And what exactly did all that have to do with an argument about logic?

I was pointing out the flaw in the original argument, based on nothing but if/then statements. I was not saying anything about religious beliefs. How about:

He said the equivalent of:

IF not [b]all[/b] my marbles are blue, THEN [b]some[/b] must be blue.

I say that this is equally true:

IF not [b]all[/b] my marbles are blue, THEN [b]none[/b] must be blue (they could all be red).

It leaves open the possibility that some Jews are responsible, but it doesn't imply that more than zero Jews are responsible.

[Ora et Labora]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Oct 3 2005, 07:38 PM']What is the point of this thread?  Nowhere in the gospels does Christ curse the Jewish people.  (And let us not forget, Christ, the holy family and all the original Apostles, were all Jews.)
You give the (not infallible) opinons of various saints, yet ignore the words of St. Paul in Sacred Scripture, and the words of a Church council, which you decrye as heretical because it contradicts your own opinions (or rather the opinons of certain "Rad-trad" firebrands yoy've been reading).

And would would the point be for us if Jews were cursed?  Jews are called to accept Christ as are all people, and should not be treated different than other non-Christians.  (We should try to evangelize them, which will not be accomplished by running around calling them a "cursed race.")

It seems that all this is is simply another desperate "Trad" attempt to prove the current Catholic Church heretical or apostate.  And that's a lot of bull-hockey.
[right][snapback]745077[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]


I dont think that is what Sam had in mind, Socrates. And like Sam said, we led off to his original point.

[Ora et Labora]

I'm not answering though, because for a while I've wanted to know about the Jews as well!

And I think the Jewdism religion today is the same as in the Old Covanent. (I'm sorry if spelling smells of elderberries.) Is that what you were asking, Sam?

In Christ,
Kristina

[littlebits]

[quote name='Ora et Labora' date='Oct 9 2005, 07:36 PM']I dont think that is what Sam had in mind, Socrates. And like Sam said, we led off to his original point.
[right][snapback]751885[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
A long time has passed in the history of these our beings..I do believe that as curses go.as through one man came death..ie the curse of Adam who through Eve was tempted to eat she being tempted by the serpent..to disobedience..and thus their curse that death entered..
So through one man came life..Christ they speak of as the new Adam through whose shed blood we can be forgiven.
Still and all for me there are endless questions as to ..why then does God dump His garbage on the earth..Or seperate Adam Eve and serpent from their habitat..and how can we not but wonder how long did they work..to tend and decorate the garden..and food a reward? Before crying out for death?
Or why do hurricanes and tornadoes always strike trailer camps? Does God hate the poor?
Because there is a new teaching..a saviour..that still doesn't answer for
why if on a map there is this small portion of land called Israel..and those neighbouring lands are huge by comparison why is it always being accused of Greed. Personally I don't like these schizoid existences as through our good Bible names....and if you aren't aware of the way that they see us as dirty.. but always get there for the paydirt..long time..to not question..
Logic says..that point A is a given in all it's possibilities..Point A is a given..we then set forth to point B..Point B is sequential..however it is predertimed by the interval. Now not liking Point B as we see these prophecies or visions..the only way to change Point B as sequential..is to change the interval..so as carefully as my Aunt and uncle and their 5 boys worked to garden down a very large slope..that would remain flooded according to the interval..was to change the direction of the furrows..cross cultivation.
My people die for lack of knowledge..our hopes died long ago..the labourers who worked in your fields have not been paid...so in Christ..the fulfillment of the law and the prophets..as Israel sees the world as a playground.
I don't even know my own culture..all I know isit looks like cowardice..and
why..Is Jerusalem that death star collision of prehistory?
Is there any logic to religion at all?

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

[quote name='Ora et Labora' date='Oct 9 2005, 06:39 PM']I'm not answering though, because for a while I've wanted to know about the Jews as well!

And I think the Jewdism religion today is the same as in the Old Covanent. (I'm sorry if spelling smells of elderberries.) Is that what you were asking, Sam?

In Christ,
Kristina
[right][snapback]751889[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

from what i understand the old covenant is over. im asking
is the relegion differente fundementally than it was in the OT.

heres my idea:

[quote]When the temple was destroyed, the Jewish religion as it was known then was effectively ended. Around 90 A.D., there was a Jewish school of Rabbis, convened under the auspices of the Flavian Roman emperors, which is known today as the "Council of Jamnia." Their significant task was to do two things. A) Reform the Jewish religion so that it could operate without the Temple and the sacrifices therein, and B) Circle the wagons to deal with this new "Christianity." This council was significant for us in two ways. First, it commissioned a new translation of the Hebrew scriptures, throwing out the old Septuagint, which had been the "official" version for hundreds of years, because it was the version Christians were using to evangelize. Also, related to the scriptures, various old testament books which we call the Deutero-Canonicals were thrown out, and the Maccabees were thrown out, because the latter had examples of Jewish Revolt, and the council, convened with the aid of the Romans, did not wish to do anything that could incite Jews to rebellion, particularly after the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70. Secondly, this Jewish council condemned Christianity,  making the religion more anti-Christian than Jewish, per se.



This is how we can definitely say that Judaism, with it's veneration of the Talmud, that exists today is NOT the same religion as that practiced  by Old Testament Jews. [/quote]

many jews do not believe in hell the idea of a messiah or even an after life anymore.

[Thumper]

While I'm certainly not a scholar of either ancient or modern Judaism, my question would be what constitutes the core of the Jewish faith. Certainly the Temple is extremely imporant. However, during the Babylonian captivity the Jewish people continued in faith without access to the Temple. So the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD definitely had a major impact on Judaism, but I'm not sure that it changed their faith in an essential manner so as to create a disconnect.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

what about the changing of the bible and the fact that the jews don't believe in the messiah or hell anymore?

[avemaria40]

My Jewish friends have told me that they do believe in a Heaven and a Purgatory, but not Hell.

[Dave]

I'm gonna hijack this thread a little bit because Sam described Vatican II as "fallible." It's not! It's infallible, and if you wish to call yourself Catholic, you have to assent to its teachings and obey them.

[Thumper]

Changing of the Bible: This is from "Bible: Old Testament" in The New Dictionary of Theology: "Even though the rabbis attempted to settle the issue of canonicity after AD 70 at their school in Jamnia, west of Jersusalem, Sirach was still read for several centuries and is referred to in the Talmud as sacred; other books remained controversial, like Ezekiel, Canticles and Ecclesiastes. This variation in the number of sacred books did not touch the doctrinal essence of Judaism, for the latter depended basically upon the Torah, which in the Septuagint as in all Hebrew manuscripts remained the most holy of all." So the Torah was essential; other books, however, were still in the process of being recognized as canonical--Christians would also go through a process of determining canonicity.

Hell: it is my impression that the Jewish idea of what happens following death is not as clear cut as those of Christianity. There is an indication of life after death, but this does not always seem to be connected to a judgment about righteousness or wickedness (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheol). The Christian notion of Hell may be tied more to the term "Gehenna," which is taken up by the New Testament (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gehenna). So, before we can ask, "Do the Jewish people still believe in Hell?" we need to first know whether 1) the Jewish people ever believed in Hell as we understand it in Christianity and 2) what in fact the Jewish people did then and do now believe about an afterlife. [As a side note, I imagine that just as some Christians may deny the possibility of Hell, so some Jews might deny the possibility of an afterlife, etc., but that such denials may not represent the tradition as a whole.]

Messiah: I am unsure about current Jewish belief in this area; however, this site lists a number of messianic figures who have arisen in the Jewish tradition, indicating that at least some still have messianic expectations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messiah). Even at the time of Jesus, there were divergent views on who the Messiah would be and what precisely he would do. This link also has information on the afterlife and messianic expectations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messiah).

Sorry for the heavy use of Wikipedia, but I tried to look over the information with a theologian's eye, and it seemed well-balanced.

Edited October 11, 2005 by Thumper