Salvation by Works/Sacraments

[thessalonian]

I don't know how many times in my 7 years doing internet apologetics I have seen the accusations that Catholics practice works based salvation through thier sacraments. It seems to me that either way you slice it this is undeniably false from a logical perspective. I wrote this up in response to a recent accusation on a message board. If you have comments feel free to speak. If not I hope it helps you in your discussions with non-catholics at some point in the future.

I have to point out to you that this accusations that protestants make toward Catholicis is a serious red herring. You see we do not believe that going to a Church to have a piece of bread is going to save us for we do not believe that the Eucharist bread but Christ himself, pure grace. Further it is not grace that we can provide for ourselves. We recieve it from his Church. The definition of a sacrament includes that it is conferred on the Christian, ex oper operato. Now Protestant theologians will say "Ah, see there, that means "by virtue of the work performed". But here's the kicker. They leave out the understanding that grace is not earned by the reciever of the sacrament for the work performed is the work of the Church and the work of God in bringing about the great mysteries of the sacrament. The Christian can only recieve this work. He does not perform it.

Now you claim we believe in works salvation. We believe the Eucharist is pure grace. Thus we cannot believe that it is a work of our own that saves us, but we go to the table of grace. NOW let's say we are in error and that the Eucharist is not the body, blood, soul, and divinity. Are we believing in and practicing works based salvation? This cannot be charged against us. For we would be (though are not) in error but the error would not change what is taught and understood, that we are saved by grace alone, which is what the Catholic Church teaches. We can only be truly guilty of a lack of understanding about how grace is transmitted from God to man. Now of course we would be judged as culpable or not culpable for our error, but we are not teaching or practicing works based salvation.

I hope this is understandable. Not sure if you from your Protestant indoctrination will be able to grasp the distinction I am trying to make. I will pray for your understanding.

Blessings


Gerald

Edited October 6, 2005 by thessalonian

[Fides_et_Ratio]

Amen.

Many Protestants try to make a separation between grace and the Sacraments that just simply isn't there. They are inseparable.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='Fides_et_Ratio' date='Oct 6 2005, 02:27 PM']Amen.

Many Protestants try to make a separation between grace and the Sacraments that just simply isn't there. They are inseparable.
[right][snapback]748565[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

Yes. That is one of my main points. We have a far different view of grace is what has become very obvious to me. They separate it from our everyday lives. One of them this morning said "we are saved by grace, not our traditions". Well if our traditions give us a true understanding of the scriptures and truth sets us free and we are saved by grace alone, the obvious conclusion is that grace cannot be separated from true tradition and true understanding of scripture. Truth can only come from above. Thus another false dichotomy. Further only truth saves and truth was delivered once for all to the saints. Thus it's passing on is by grace if our salvation is by grace. Follow?

Edited October 6, 2005 by thessalonian

[Fides_et_Ratio]

Very much. We are in high agreement, Thessalonian.

I think this is a point we should all try to hit home in our apologetic speaking.

[Brother Adam]

yeah, its funny, once you see the Bible in its 'big picture' instead of slicing the entire Bible down to John 3:16, anything other than Catholicism is completely senseless.

[phatcatholic]

i'm not sure about describing the Eucharist as "pure grace." i mean, i understand what you mean, but you have to keep things pretty simple or protestants will miscontrue to mean something else.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='phatcatholic' date='Oct 6 2005, 05:30 PM']i'm not sure about describing the Eucharist as "pure grace." i mean, i understand what you mean, but you have to keep things pretty simple or protestants will miscontrue to mean something else.
[right][snapback]748710[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]


This person has had the catholic view explained to them, i.e. that the eucharist is Christ's BBSD. That being the case it seems logical to me that the Eucharist would be pure grace for our souls. That it could do nothing but confer grace on our souls. We will see if she understands what I said or not. She is not a totally unreasonable type like one of our mutual friends over at CG that we both like to debate so much. By the way, I've not seen hide nor hair of her since Katrina. I do honestly hope she made it out okay and pray for her.

Blessings

[phatcatholic]

btw, i had the topic of this thread in mind when i compiled these articles:
[url="http://www.phatmass.com/directory/index.php/cat_id/529"]http://www.phatmass.com/directory/index.php/cat_id/529[/url]