Rome or Israel?

[White Knight]

Hello everyone I thought this topic would be interesting to mention of, If some who look at the Bible as a literal book front to back then one would say Israel over rome, like alot of Protestants would. However, if you look at the Bible the Catholic way there is debate about Israel and Home being the earthly home of the church.

Peter was the first pope, whom Jesus appointed as the head of His Church way back two thousand years ago. Peter first preached in Israel as well as all the other Apostles, then they evenually spread out to other nations to preach to Gospel to every living creature so the Sacred Scriptures tell us.

Toward the end of Peter's life he was in Rome at the time he preached there I'm sure, then he died there. this making it the Earthly Captial of the Roman Catholic Church.


[color=green][b]This is making me wonder though, Why is there such a special attachment to Rome in the Catholic Church and not to Israel? Just wondering.[/b][/color]

[Aloysius]

We have always had a special attachment to the Holy Land. For goodness sakes, we fought wars over the place!

But ultimately, God's amazing plan for the world all converged at the formation of His Church. The wisdom of the philosophers of ancient greece had diffused to Rome which had conquered a large portion of the world and provided roads and such for God's message to be spread. So when the most unlikely religion of the nomadic people was able to bring an empire to its knees, literally before God, it was the ultimate testimony to God's providence.

All led up to the perfect conditions for the God of Israel to save the world from their sins and spread that Good News to the farthest corners of the Earth. He prepared it so that we would take Rome, and use all of Rome's good to spread the Ultimate Good.

That is why Rome is the center. Israel may be the promised land, but Rome has been, since ancient times, the center of the world. And in the New Covenant God chose not to deal only with His One people, in the New Covenant God was to deal with the world.

[scardella]

And I thought it was the Eucharist all this time!

[Aloysius]

hardeharhar... you know we're talking about the earthly center of the instituitonal church Christ formed Obviously the Eucharist is the center and Christ is the head and all that, but Rome is the center of the world where God deigned to place the human center of His Visible Church.

[son_of_angels]

Rome is where the pope is, so that is where all the power of the Church comes from. Ultimately, though, we are a sect (indeed the only true sect) of Judaism, which comes from Israel.

Although, we really have no "home" per se, only places which are fond to us for one reason or the other. If the pope was in Florida, we could say it should be Florida, etc.

[Era Might]

Avignon! Avignon! Avignon!

:

[conservativecatholic]

[quote name='Era Might' date='Oct 7 2005, 06:34 PM']Avignon! Avignon! Avignon!

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Hahahaha. Nothing like the good ole Babylonian Captivity. One of my favorite parts of history to be taught in the public school system.

[Myles Domini]

In the words of St Ambrose:

[quote]Ubi Petrus, Ibi Ecclesia[/quote]

[Cam42]

[quote name='White Knight' date='Oct 7 2005, 03:08 PM']Hello everyone I thought this topic would be interesting to mention of, If some who look at the Bible as a literal book front to back then one would say Israel over rome, like alot of Protestants would. However, if you look at the Bible the Catholic way there is debate about Israel and Home being the earthly home of the church.

Peter was the first pope, whom Jesus appointed as the head of His Church way back two thousand years ago. Peter first preached in Israel as well as all the other Apostles, then they evenually spread out to other nations to preach to Gospel to every living creature so the Sacred Scriptures tell us.

Toward the end of Peter's life he was in Rome at the time he preached there I'm sure, then he died there. this making it the Earthly Captial of the Roman Catholic Church.
[color=green][b]This is making me wonder though, Why is there such a special attachment to Rome in the Catholic Church and not to Israel? Just wondering.[/b][/color]
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First, we shouldn't look to the Bible as strictly literal, it is not a book of history. So, that puts a dubium out there right away.

Next, the reason that Rome is the earthly head, is because Rome is where the Pope is. It is where Peter settled. Peter was given control of the Church and as he moved out evangelizing the Truth, he chose Rome to base his operations. Why? Because Rome was the center of the world. Everything passed through Rome and as far as Europe is concerned I think that it still may.

I agree with Al's assessment.

[quote name='son_of_angels']Ultimately, though, we are a sect (indeed the only true sect) of Judaism, which comes from Israel.[/quote]

Absolutely incorrect. We are not a sect of Judaism. That was a pagan Roman misconception. Once Rome realized that this was not the case, the persecution of Christians began. This argument was put down in scripture. If we were ultimately a sect of Judaism, then we would have to conform to Judaic law. We don't.

While Jesus was a Jew and so were the Apostles, the Church has been universal and the message has been for all people, from the beginning. This is chronicled throughout the gospels.

[quote name='Rom 10:4']For the end of the law is Christ, unto justice to every one that believeth.[/quote]

This means that the Law was given to the Jews to excite their faith in the Christ to come.

[quote name='Gal 3:24-25']Wherefore the law was our pedagogue in Christ, that we might be justified by faith.  But after the faith is come, we are no longer under a pedagogue.[/quote]

This is the same as saying a parent will take his child to the school door.

[quote name='St. Augustine (De catechiz. rud.' date=' iv, 8)']In the Old Testament, the New lies hidden; in the New, the Old is made manifest.....[/quote]

The Christianity, then, which the Apostles preached on the day of Pentecost was entirely distinct from Judaism, especially as understood by the Jews of the time; it was a new religion, new in its Founder, new in much of its creed, new in its attitude towards both God and man, new in the spirit of its moral code.

There were metaphysical changes that took place as well, but my point is sufficently made. The Church is NOT ultimately a sect of Judaism and it is incorrect to assert that.

[conservativecatholic]

[quote name='Cam42' date='Oct 8 2005, 08:01 AM'] Peter was given control of the Church and as he moved out evangelizing the Truth, he chose Rome to base his operations. 
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Ditto. Couldn't be stated better.

[son_of_angels]

I agree, in terms of universality and the fact that we do not strictly keep the law, one could say that we are not a sect of Judaism. That doesn't prevent us from ACTUALLY being one. We exist based on a particular interpretation of the Torah and the Old Testament, and claim to have those Scriptures' main interpretation. As such, we are indeed a sect of Judaism, whether we like to say so or not.

Secondly, your statement, "we shouldn't look to the Bible as strictly literal" makes me wonder... WHY BELIEVE AT ALL? To leave out a literal interpretation of the Bible is to not have a complete one-along with the moral, allegorical, and anagogical interpretations thereof. If we cannot say, for sure, that Peter was literally given the Papacy of Rome, that Israel was literally chosen by God and given by him the Law, there is no faith at all. Moreover, we neither reject the Law nor the Prophets, but interpret them in light of Christ. Your statements smack of the Marcion heresy, where the OT was completely rejected.

We are the ONLY TRUE JUDAISM. That religion commonly held among the Carnal Jews is no more Jewish than the heresies held among such as the Sadducees during Jesus' day, except that, through the Law, they are witheld from many errors. We are the continuation of Judaism, not they.

[Guest JeffCR07]

I voted none of the above, and I stand by my vote. While Rome may be the heart of the Church on account of it being the Seat of Peter, the Church as the Mystical Body of Christ will never call any place on earth "home" in any meaningful sense until the Parousia and the New Earth.

I take the intent of this post to be a question concerning places, rather than persons, and for that reason, the argument [i]Ubi Petrus, Ibi Ecclesia[/i] does not force me to change my answer in the least. There is nothing intrinsic in either Rome or Isreal that makes it more or less the "home" of the Church.

[Cam42]

[quote name='son_of_angels' date='Oct 8 2005, 07:26 PM']I agree, in terms of universality and the fact that we do not strictly keep the law, one could say that we are not a sect of Judaism.  That doesn't prevent us from ACTUALLY being one.  We exist based on a particular interpretation of the Torah and the Old Testament, and claim to have those Scriptures' main interpretation.  As such, we are indeed a sect of Judaism, whether we like to say so or not.

Secondly, your statement, "we shouldn't look to the Bible as strictly literal" makes me wonder... WHY BELIEVE AT ALL? To leave out a literal interpretation of the Bible is to not have a complete one-along with the moral, allegorical, and anagogical interpretations thereof.  If we cannot say, for sure, that Peter was literally given the Papacy of Rome, that Israel was literally chosen by God and given by him the Law, there is no faith at all.  Moreover, we neither reject the Law nor the Prophets, but interpret them in light of Christ.  Your statements smack of the Marcion heresy, where the OT was completely rejected.

We are the ONLY TRUE JUDAISM. That religion commonly held among the Carnal Jews is no more Jewish than the heresies held among such as the Sadducees during Jesus' day, except that, through the Law, they are witheld from many errors.  We are the continuation of Judaism, not they.
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To assert that we are a sect of Judaism is contrary to Catholic teaching. We are not a sect of Judaism. The closest that can be said is that Judaism is the precursor to Christianity. Subtle, but significant difference. But to assert that we are a sect of Judaism is flat wrong and is not supported in any shape by the Church or the Magisterium.

Why should we believe in Scripture at all? Faith. That is enough. Sure there are historical aspects to Scripture that are verifiable, however, it is not strict literal interpretation that allows for belief. That was the point that I was trying to make. I am sorry if it was lost on you. It was not intended to be as such.

We are not the only true Judaism. What you are asserting is the tennant of Messianic Judaism.....that is an incorrect view for a Catholic to hold. I have shown how that is the case in a previous post. I would suggest that you take some time and read up on the historical aspect of Christianity. You will see that Scripture, Tradition, and secular history all refute your your position. We can get into it if you like, but to assert that we are Judaic in any form is simply and factually incorrect.

[son_of_angels]

Here's a question, what then WOULD constitute something being a sect of Judaism?

[Cam42]

[quote name='son_of_angels' date='Oct 9 2005, 12:41 AM']Here's a question, what then WOULD constitute something being a sect of Judaism?
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Hasidic Judaism, Conservative-Reform, Essene movement, Haredi Judaism; those ideas which still employ the Jewish faith.

Christianity does not do this, and it is apparent not only in Sacred Scripture but also throughout ancient Roman writings as well as ancient Jewish writings (cf. Josephus).

I hope that answers your question.

[son_of_angels]

[quote]539: The evangelists indicate the salvific meaning of this mysterious event: Jesus is the new Adam who remained faithful just where the first Adam had given in to temptation.  [b]Jesus fulfills Israel's vocation perfectly: in contrast to those who had once provoked God during forty years in the desert..[/b][/quote]

[quote]123: Christians venerate the Old Testament as true Word of God.  The Church has always vigorously opposed the idea of rejecting the Old Testament under the pretext that the New has rendered it void (Marcionism).[/quote]

[Cam42]

Those quotes prove nothing.

[son_of_angels]

It doesn't answer the question (the post above was before I saw your comment). You haven't defined these, and what "the essential" elements of Judaism are.

[Cam42]

[quote name='son_of_angels' date='Oct 9 2005, 12:53 AM']It doesn't answer the question (the post above was before I saw your comment).  You haven't defined these, and what "the essential" elements of Judaism are.
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You didn't ask what the essential elements of Judaism were, you asked what would constitute something being a sect.

Hasidic Jews, et al. constitute sects. Christianity does not.

Your quotes, from the Catechism (I assume) are incomplete....couple that with the following paragraphs and you will see that it supports my position.

[quote name='CCC 541']Now after John was arrested, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God, and saying: 'The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent, and believe in the gospel.'" "To carry out the will of the Father Christ inaugurated the kingdom of heaven on earth." Now the Father's will is "to raise up men to share in his own divine life". [b]He does this by gathering men around his Son Jesus Christ. This gathering is the Church, "on earth the seed and beginning of that kingdoms"[/b].[/quote]

Notice there is nothing mentioned about being Jewish, first.

And this shows that we are not part of Judaism at all, but rather that my position is supported......

[quote name='CCC 543']Everyone is called to enter the kingdom. First announced to the children of Israel, this messianic kingdom is intended to accept men of all nations. To enter it, one must first accept Jesus' word:

The word of the Lord is compared to a seed which is sown in a field; those who hear it with faith and are numbered among the little flock of Christ have truly received the kingdom. Then, by its own power, the seed sprouts and grows until the harvest.[/quote]

[quote name='CCC 122']Indeed, "the economy of the Old Testament was deliberately so oriented that it should prepare for and declare in prophecy the coming of Christ, redeemer of all men." "Even though they contain matters imperfect and provisional," the books of the Old Testament bear witness to the whole divine pedagogy of God's saving love: these writings "are a storehouse of sublime teaching on God and of sound wisdom on human life, as well as a wonderful treasury of prayers; in them, too, the mystery of our salvation is present in a hidden way."[/quote]

Notice that we are not talking about Judaism, but rather the Old Testament. We are talking about what is revealed by God, before Christ entered into humanity. There is inherent good in that. This is the reason that CCC 123 is written. It is also the reason that CCC 122 is written. The Old Covenant has permanent value, but that doesn't mean that we are ultimately a Jewish sect.

As a matter of clarification, nothing lends to that assertion. In the Catechism or otherwise, from a Catholic catechetical point of view.

And here is how we are to view the OT:

[quote name='CCC 129']Christians therefore read the Old Testament in the light of Christ crucified and risen. Such typological reading discloses the inexhaustible content of the Old Testament; but it must not make us forget that the Old Testament retains its own intrinsic value as Revelation reaffirmed by our Lord himself. Besides, the New Testament has to be read in the light of the Old. Early Christian catechesis made constant use of the Old Testament. As an old saying put it, the New Testament lies hidden in the Old and the Old Testament is unveiled in the New.[/quote]

[son_of_angels]

Let me answer my own question, seeing as you refuse to,

In defining relgious Judaism, and all sects derive from these, I accept the following as definitions,

1. Judaism is that faith laid down by Moses to be followed and kept for all time.

2. Judaism renders an opinion and a practical interpretation of the writings of the prophets and the History of Israel in relation to the revelation of God.

3. Judaism is the connection between the present day and the events written about in the Torah, both culturally and religiously.

These all define religious Judaism, and in which Christianity finds a place. By saying that Christianity is a sect of Judaism, I am not arguing that we somehow "derive" or are secondary to the Judaism which is held among many of today's carnal Jews, nor that we do not claim an essential change in the application of the Law and the Prophets, nor that we are somehow bound to the Law in all of its specifics (at least in a carnal way). We are instead the fulfillment of the Law and the Prophets, just as, in a different way, the Essenes would so claim, the Pharisees would so claim, and today the rabbinical Jews would claim.

To say that we are not the ultimate fulfillment, and therefore, in human terms, a sect and interpretation of the Law, i.e. Judaism, is tantamount to saying that Jesus failed in his mission of saving Israel. Instead, I say that I am a Jew and God-fearer, though not a Hebrew, circumcised according to the Spirit by my adoption in Christ, grafted into the line of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Remember that it was partly the enlightenment of St. Augustine concerning the Tanakh which brought about his conversion, and it was, at least partly, the rejection of the law, which is carnal, that led the Manichees into error. Moreover, Marcion was led even to conclude that the God of the Old Testament was not his God, because he could not find the connection between Judaism and Christianity.

It is true that modern, and even somewhat ancient Judaism, is completely different from Christianity. It is also true that in every way Judaism has been transformed in Christ, and there is no Judaism besides that which subsists in Him. Ergo, we are a sect of Judaism. That we want to claim, whether we have a right to do so or not, special privileges in that regard is of little effect.

Edited October 9, 2005 by son_of_angels