An American Pope and the Pledge...

[Duc_In_Altum]

If an American Cardinal was elected Pope, could he still be justified in reciting the American Pledge of Allegiance?

peace,

-Joe

[son_of_angels]

No, he would be the head of state for another nation, and should renounce all other allegiances. At least that is my opinion.

[Didacus]

I agree.

I am also of the opinion that I hold the Vatican authority higher than my own country. I'm Canadien however. (aka; I would not fight in a war for Canada unless the vatican would declare it a 'just war' for example).

[dspen2005]

Any Catholic's first allegiance is to God and His Church.....

[Maria]

When someone becomes pope, doesn't he loose his other citizenships? Or was that just with JPII because Poland was communist?

[Aloysius]

though since the Vatican is not in the business of declaring which individual war is just or unjust, Didacus may be taking it a little too far. we ought to defend our country. the Vatican does not claim spiritual expertise over matters of the secuirity of nations, just provides the principals that must be applied.

[Era Might]

I'm not sure. What does it mean to pledge "allegiance" to America. It certainly doesn't mean you accept anything and everything America does or says. Americans disagree over lots of stuff, even the constitution itself. It doesn't mean you will obey everything America decrees.

I don't see why an American Pope couldn't pledge allegiance to his homeland. If he disagreed with it, he could do what every other American does: complain. :

Edited October 11, 2005 by Era Might

[Aloysius]

I donno... a head of another state pledging allegiance to america? that really wouldn't go over too well...

he could do it privately if he really wanted to i suppose...

but I'm picturing like... every morning he raises this big huge american flag from that pointy thing in St. Peter's square and then says it over a big microphone and afterwards shoots fireworks off and passes out apple pie as they all prepare to go to the baseball game...


lol

[Duc_In_Altum]

Perhaps it would be a good idea in order to gain support and pride of Americans for the teachings of the Church. It might give them someone who tells them they love them and desires that they would change their ways and their culture. I think it could gain considerable pull with the president as well. I'm not sure though. Thats all theoretical


peace,

-Joe

ps- I could go for some baseball right now, now that I think about it.

[son_of_angels]

Unfortunately, every time a pope has pledged allegiances to a particular nation in the past, it has always led to bad consequences for both that Pope and the nation he allies himself with.

Personally, I would rather have a pope give my country the cold shoulder than risk the wrath of a hundred nations, and risk the scandalization of my faith, in order to have the pope's allegiance.

Not only that, I look for the day when the American flag burns and the Vatican flag is raised over the White House (but that's just my fantasy world).

[photosynthesis]

the words "American" and "pope" don't seem to go together, but I guess stranger things have happened.

[Snarf]

I read that the Vatican really dreads the idea of an American pope, purely on grounds that the rest of the world would see it as an Americanization of the Church to go along with the Americanization of the world at large.

Besides, according to the US DoS, if you declare an oath to any other political body (such as the Vatican) you tacitly renounce your American citizenship. I think it says that in my passport.

[Duc_In_Altum]

[quote]Besides, according to the US DoS, if you declare an oath to any other political body (such as the Vatican) you tacitly renounce your American citizenship.[/quote]

I think that's our answer.

Also...
[quote] I look for the day when the American flag burns and the Vatican flag is raised over the White House (but that's just my fantasy world).

[/quote]

Should we start a debate thread on patriotism?

peace,

-Joe

[son_of_angels]

I am quite patriotic, in my own cynical way. Nonetheless I am not an "American" Catholic, I am a Roman Catholic, of the Latin Rite. My ultimate leader and government is in a hierarchy which culminates in Rome, and which, I pray, shall one day have pride of place in the governance of this people.

Nonetheless, I agree, an American Pope could be disastrous. Personally, I should hope for one from Africa or one of the countries with an alive and growing Catholic community....

[Snarf]

I have an odd love/hate relationship with America. I love the people and their ideosyncrasies, but I'm much more sectionalistic than patriotic. Indiana means much more to me than America at large, yet it has itself an ugly history of racism, exploitation, and anti-Catholicism. I think American politics are deplorable, but I understand that most people are so entrenched in it that it will never change. I really hate to be the guy that treats any of the Founding Fathers like gods, but Washington really was right in his stance against a dualistic party system.

[son_of_angels]

By removing the two party system, one would simply replace the two parties with multi-party coalitions where the interests of constituencies are overturned for the sake of maintaining minority goverments.

That's why democratic republics are such fiendish inventions....

[White Knight]

I think, if this American Pope was ever elected, and if he came to visit this nation, then he sould have the "choice" rather to say it or not to say it, it souldn't be forced upon another person who lvies outside America.

[journeyman]

This should not be a unique question to Americans. The present Pope was born in Germany. Did he renounce his German citizenship when he was elected? Had he previously renounced it when he became a senior member of the Curia?

This question applies even to the Italians, since since the early 1900s Italy and the Vatican have been two separate governments.

Hmm, this sounds like a legal question, scurries off to find Code of Canon Law

[journeyman]

no quick answer there . . . Wikipedia

At the end of 2003, 552 persons held Vatican citizenship, of whom 61 were cardinals, 346 were other clergy, 101 members of the Pontifical Swiss Guard and 44 were other lay persons. Nearly all these people were dual citizens, retaining citizenship of their own countries while working at the Vatican.
[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vatican_City"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vatican_City[/url]

which mirrors the Vatican statement
[url="http://www.vatican.va/news_services/press/documentazione/documents/sp_ss_scv/informazione_generale/cittadini-vaticani_en.html"]http://www.vatican.va/news_services/press/...aticani_en.html[/url]


Acquisition and loss of citizenship, authorization to reside in the State of Vatican City and formalities to enter, are set out in the Law N. III of 7 June 1929, on citizenship and residence, and in the Regulation N. XXXVI of 27 September 1932, for entrance to Vatican City.
[url="http://www.vatican.va/news_services/press/documentazione/documents/sp_ss_scv/informazione_generale/sp_ss_scv_info-generale_en.html"]http://www.vatican.va/news_services/press/...enerale_en.html[/url]


The Vatican has citizens (1500 persons), but there is nobody with only Vatican citizenship. For example, the Pope is citizen of both the Vatican and Poland. The other peculiarity is that the Vatican issues only diplomatic passports, so this is a country, where all the citizens are diplomats.
Maxval, 14 March 2001
unsubstantiated information from:
[url="http://flagspot.net/flags/va.html"]http://flagspot.net/flags/va.html[/url]


Vatican City State's estimated 700 inhabitants include people of many nationalities, though most are Italian. At least 400 have Vatican citizenship, including those prelates who are heads of dicasteries in the Roman Curia. All cardinals have automatic Vatican citizenship but preserve their original citizenship.
[url="http://www.zenit.org/english/visualizza.phtml?sid=48814"]http://www.zenit.org/english/visualizza.phtml?sid=48814[/url]

Maybe there is something in the new Fundamental Law of the State of Vatican City
[url="http://www.vatican.va/vatican_city_state/legislation/index.htm"]http://www.vatican.va/vatican_city_state/l...ation/index.htm[/url]
if you speak Italian, German or Portuguese

[CatholicWarrior]

[quote name='dspen2005' date='Oct 11 2005, 04:42 PM']Any Catholic's first allegiance is to God and His Church.....
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[/quote]

Ironic that I find my response to this in today's mass readings:

[quote]Tell us, then, what is your opinion: Is it lawful to pay the census tax to Caesar or not?"

Knowing their malice, Jesus said, "Why are you testing me, you hypocrites?

Show me the coin that pays the census tax." Then they handed him the Roman coin.

He said to them, "Whose image is this and whose inscription?"

They replied, "Caesar's." 13 At that he said to them, "Then repay to Caesar what belongs to Caesar and to God what belongs to God."

When they heard this they were amazed, and leaving him they went away.[/quote]

Render the loyalty to your country and to your Church. I look to my nation for defense, commerce and other things -- but to my Church for my spiritual well-being.