homosexuality vs. other sexual sins

[ofpheritup]

[quote name='photosynthesis' date='Oct 11 2005, 08:18 PM']condoms prevent the touching of genitals and therefore are an impediment to unity in sex.
[right][snapback]754569[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]


DUH ?

Not Duh to you Photo but DUH to the ones who know better
and are pretending they don't. It is sad how some people delude themselves and then get angry when they are not supported in
their beliefs.

Good job, P.

[Theoketos]

[quote name='photosynthesis' date='Oct 11 2005, 08:18 PM']condoms prevent the touching of genitals and therefore are an impediment to unity in sex.
[right][snapback]754569[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

This is not ( if you will pardon the word) main thrust of the argument agianst contraception as destructive of the unitive aspect.

A total gift of self results in unity.
Feritility is part of that complete breakfast.
Feritility is therefor always apart of unity.

To have a unitive sexual contact, the whole self, including one's fertility must be given to the other spouse, in a premenant, free, fruitful, total, faithful way.

[Didacus]

The single, most mortal sin related to homosexuality in this day and age is the perversion of the young.

I for one would not be willing to say the homosexual act in itself is anything more than a venial sin.

HOWEVER:

to subject your lifestyle to it.
to argue and force people to accept it as normal
to force its approval into laws on a national level

to go out of your way to 'educate' the young into accepting this form of sex nad perhaps even to 'try it out'

NOW THAT is mortal sin.

I rad the french version of the bible, in the french version, Jesus actually says he hates those who corrupts the young! Though I think this is (or might be) a 'bad translation since Jesus (or God) cannot hate, I believe it is significant. when I gfind the passage I'll attach it to my post. (I'm just not too skilled in my 'quick referencing' just yet.)

[photosynthesis]

[quote name='Theoketos' date='Oct 13 2005, 10:50 AM']This is not ( if you will pardon the word) main thrust of the argument agianst contraception as destructive of the unitive aspect.

A total gift of self results in unity.
Feritility is part of that complete breakfast.
Feritility is therefor always apart of unity.

To have a unitive sexual contact, the whole self, including one's fertility must be given to the other spouse, in a premenant, free, fruitful, total, faithful way.
[right][snapback]756993[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
well, of course condoms are also bad because they prevent the gift of one's fertility, if you look at it on that level as well... but not even being willing to fully touch your partner for fear of getting a "disease" or "pregnancy" is also not full self-donation.

[photosynthesis]

[quote name='Didacus' date='Oct 13 2005, 11:21 AM']I for one would not be willing to say the homosexual act in itself is anything more than a venial sin.
[right][snapback]757003[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
that's not what the Church teaches.

The Church teaches that the act is inherently wrong, and a mortal sin.

[Didacus]

[quote name='photosynthesis' date='Oct 13 2005, 01:29 PM']that's not what the Church teaches.

The Church teaches that the act is inherently wrong, and a mortal sin.
[right][snapback]757226[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

thank you for the correction, that is actually a sentence that did not come out right from my end.

I have a hard time though, consolidating the fact that it is a mortal sin. Sins of the flesh, any sin of the flesh, I have a hard time being convinced of the mortality therein. Don't get me wrong, I will not dispute nor even debate the church's teachings, I only say that i have some research in soul searching to do if you will, before I can 'see the full light'. give me a minute or two (maybe a week, a year?), I'll get there. Meanwhile I have to honest.

And I stand by the fact that I believe the sin of the homosexual act is a midget compared to actually teaching the sin as right towards the masses.

[photosynthesis]

[quote name='Didacus' date='Oct 13 2005, 03:06 PM']And I stand by the fact that I believe the sin of the homosexual act is a midget compared to actually teaching the sin as right towards the masses.
[right][snapback]757267[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
Both would be considered grave offenses.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Didacus' date='Oct 13 2005, 02:06 PM']thank you for the correction, that is actually a sentence that did not come out right from my end.

I have a hard time though, consolidating the fact that it is a mortal sin.  Sins of the flesh, any sin of the flesh, I have a hard time being convinced of the mortality therein.  Don't get me wrong, I will not dispute nor even debate the church's teachings, I only say that i have some research in soul searching to do if you will, before I can 'see the full light'.  give me a minute or two (maybe a week, a year?), I'll get there.  Meanwhile I have to honest.

And I stand by the fact that I believe the sin of the homosexual act is a midget compared to actually teaching the sin as right towards the masses.
[right][snapback]757267[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

The Church clearly teaches that homosexual acts, as well as all sins of the flesh (fornication, adultery, masturbation, contraception, etc.) are mortal sins.

We must accept the Church's moral teaching, even when it is hard for us to understand. As Catholics we must follow the Church's teaching, rather than decide for ourselves what is and isn't serious sin. Otherwise, morality ends up becoming entirely subjective, based on one's own personal judgments of what "feels" right or wrong.
It can become quite easy to justify or explain away anything, and we are left with the modern mess of moral subjectivism.

With our fallen human nature, sins of the flesh do not seem like a "big deal" to most of us - this is why we need the Church's teaching. Rejection of the Church's teachings on sexual matters is often the first step that turns people away from orthodoxy on other matters.

Our Lady of Fatima said that more souls are in hell for sins of the flesh than any other sins. This is not to say that they are the worst, but they are always mortal when done with full consent of the will, and are the easiest path to lead people away from God.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Didacus' date='Oct 13 2005, 11:21 AM']
I for one would not be willing to say the homosexual act in itself is anything more than a venial sin.
[right][snapback]757003[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

The Scriptures and the Church disagree with you.

If two [unmarried to each other] heterosexual people have sex and that is a mortal sin, how could you think that homosex would only be a venial sin?

[Didacus]

hey hey, take it easy people... geesh, one bad sentence and i have the militia after me!

i admit it is a mortal sin, but I have trouble understanding to that extent.

I DO NOT CONTRADICT CHURCH TEACHING, nor wish to debate church teachings either. What I said (hence the opening statement 'I for one,") was said in the psirit of my own limited understanding of church teachings and not in a manner intended to criticize the teaching itself.

How many times have I said I was not a saint? Trying, but not. Trying to understand, but don't always suceed. Want to be saved, but can't do it on my own?

i whole heartidily agree, and have said many times myself with Socrates' statement : "We must accept the Church's moral teaching, even when it is hard for us to understand. As Catholics we must follow the Church's teaching, rather than decide for ourselves what is and isn't serious sin. "

Though I did not use those precise words.

Cut me some slack here gents and ladies, just a little...

[cmotherofpirl]

I bopped you to get your logic circuits back in gear.

If one is mortal sin, the other must be as well.
Its ok, there are some things I don't understand but accept anyway too.

Edited October 14, 2005 by cmotherofpirl

[Aloysius]

doubt your beliefs, but never believe your doubts.

[Didacus]

On a different note, here's one for the good guys!

[url="http://www.remnantnewspaper.com/Archives/archive-2005-sacrament_of_diversity.htm"]http://www.remnantnewspaper.com/Archives/a...f_diversity.htm[/url]

This I firmly believe is an example to follow!

[theculturewarrior]

I think it depends. Sometimes the gravity of sexual sins is mitigated by pathology, and traumatic events can effect sexuality. Sometimes sex abuse victims or rape victims turn to homosexuality (or worse!). I think this is less grave than a curious college student or bored suburbanite. Sometimes mental illness can affect sexuality. I often wonder if homosexuality is more of a way people make sense out of themselves than a sexual orientation. It works that way with many mental illnesses, (no gawking please!), and this runs the gammet of sexual sins.

I'm not sure what the answer is. God judges hearts, not me.

[Socrates]

[quote name='theculturewarrior' date='Oct 14 2005, 01:59 PM']I think it depends. Sometimes the gravity of sexual sins is mitigated by pathology, and traumatic events can effect sexuality. Sometimes sex abuse victims or rape victims turn to homosexuality (or worse!). I think this is less grave than a curious college student or bored suburbanite. Sometimes mental illness can affect sexuality. I often wonder if homosexuality is more of a way people make sense out of themselves than a sexual orientation. It works that way with many mental illnesses, (no gawking please!), and this runs the gammet of sexual sins.

I'm not sure what the answer is. God judges hearts, not me.
[right][snapback]758545[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

While it is true only God can judge the individual soul, let us not become so "nonjudgmental" that we "explain away" every sin!

Nowadays nobody dares speak out against sin or call evil by its true name. This psycho-therapeutic "everybody's a victim" mentality has done untold damage in modern society. I heard at a speach on child-abuse that very few victims of sexual abuse go on to become abusers, though every child abuser, when arrested immeditately says he was "molested as a child." (in order to make himself seem a victim).

It becomes quite easy to blame others or "mental illness" for one's own sins or crimes. Excuses are easy. Responsibility is what is needed.

We need to start taking responsibility for our own actions, stop trying to explain away evil as "pathologies" in need of "healing," and get over the "victim mentality." Only then will we begin to make moral progress.

[theculturewarrior]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Oct 14 2005, 06:39 PM']While it is true only God can judge the individual soul, let us not become so "nonjudgmental" that we "explain away" every sin!

Nowadays nobody dares speak out against sin or call evil by its true name.  This psycho-therapeutic "everybody's a victim" mentality has done untold damage in modern society.  I heard at a speach on child-abuse that very few victims of sexual abuse go on to become abusers, though every child abuser, when arrested immeditately says he was "molested as a child."  (in order to make himself seem a victim).

It becomes quite easy to blame others or "mental illness" for one's own sins or crimes.  Excuses are easy.  Responsibility is what is needed.

We need to start taking responsibility for our own actions, stop trying to explain away evil as "pathologies" in need of "healing," and get over the "victim mentality."  Only then will we begin to make moral progress.
[right][snapback]758853[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

I wasn't intending to excuse sexual sins, but there are mitigating factors. I think this is even in the Catechism. On the one hand, there's no "get out of jail free" card with God. We are sinners, and sins have consequences. On the other hand, there's no "one size fits all" justice. We're all different, we come from different backgrounds and have different biological makeups. That's why God judges hearts, and not us.

I'm reminded of the woman who was caught in adultery in the Gospel. Sin is to be condemned, but "let him who is without sin cast the first stone." BTW, regarding which sin I believe is the most serious, I would say "pimping," especially when it involves children.

[theculturewarrior]

Aggh double post

[theculturewarrior]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Oct 14 2005, 06:39 PM'] "mental illness" for one's own sins or crimes.  Excuses are easy.  Responsibility is what is needed.

We need to start taking responsibility for our own actions, stop trying to explain away evil as "pathologies" in need of "healing," and get over the "victim mentality."  Only then will we begin to make moral progress.
[right][snapback]758853[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

I read this a little more carefully. I don't think there's any shortage of people calling evil what it is, although terrorists in Iraq seem to be getting more attention than Planned Parenthood!

For a sin to be mortal, there are three requirements: Knowledge of the gravity of the sin, complete consent and an full act of the will (if I'm remembering this correctly from RCIA). People with mental illness sometimes cannot tell the difference between reality and their waking nightmares, so knowledge of the gravity of the sin is out for some. Some people with mental illnesses are troubled by delusional thoughts that they are God. How can you know how grave your sin is if you believe that you are God?

Sometimes mental illness comes with a surge of sexual energy. This is a documented phenomenon, and IIRC appears in the DSM-IV as symptomatic of certain disorders. This may contradict the will of the sinner. He or she may want nothing to do with it! If the event is accompanied by sexual sin, it involves an act of the will, sure, but is it an act of the will to the extent needed for a sin to be mortal?

As far as sexual predators are concerned, I do not know how many have been abused as children, and how many haven't. However, I'm somewhat of an "insider" in the mental health arena, and I know the abuse as a child can lead to deviant behavior as an adult. Some children are sexualized from an early age, and may become homosexuals or pedophiles or whatever as a result. I'm not sure what a priest would say in confession to somebody who had been abused seriously as a child and became an abuser as an adult. It happens, though! It's not something to be swept under the rug.

That said, pedophiles should be kept off of the streets forever.