Mary as "with the redeemer"

[Jesuspaidtheprice]

I'm not one to twist anyones words in a knot, so if Catholics tell me that 'co-redemptrix' means that Mary was 'with the Savior' on His journey to save our souls, I'll take you at your word. Here is my confusion though, even with your 'development of doctrine', how can we know that the Apostles wouldn't have thought such an idea to be absurd, if not Mary worship in biblical times? What early sources do we have on such devotion to Mary as the Catholic Church professes today?

[jasJis]

I'm not sure what you mean. Catholics don't 'worship' Mary. As the Bible says, all generations shall call her Blessed because she was overshadowed by the Grace of God. That's not very confusing.

The co-redemptrix part is a little different. First you have to understand that Jesus is both Fully Man and Fully Divine. As Man and God he is our Savior. Mary is only Fully Human but she is filled with God's Grace and was a human, chosen by God Himself, to be the earthly womb that God became Man. On a human level by the Grace of God, she became Co-Remptrix. She, like you and me, is human, but by the Grace of God, can do participate in the Divine.

[Jesuspaidtheprice]

But I didn't assert that Catholics worshipped Mary. I know you believe that you do not worship her. I'm taking you on your word on that one. What I'm asking is, with such a doctrine only being formulated over 1500 years after Christ, how can we know this is something the Apostles would have believed or accepted with its absence in the scriptures or the writings of the early Church. It seems this doctrine was formulated out of other doctrines in the Catholic Church without any reasonable basis.

Or maybe I don't correctly understand the doctrine, so you are welcome to give me a correct explaination.

[jasJis]

[quote name='Jesuspaidtheprice' date='Oct 12 2005, 10:27 AM']But I didn't assert that Catholics worshipped Mary. I know  you believe that you do not worship her. I'm taking you on your word on that one. What I'm asking is, with such a doctrine only being formulated over 1500 years after Christ, how can we know this is something the Apostles would have believed or accepted with its absence in the scriptures or the writings of the early Church. It seems this doctrine was formulated out of other doctrines in the Catholic Church without any reasonable basis.

Or maybe I don't correctly understand the doctrine, so you are welcome to give me a correct explaination.
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[/quote]Take a quick look at this link:

[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/MARSCR.TXT"]"On Mary in Scripture"[/url]
that is also in Phatmass' "resources" link above. That way we can talk on the same page.

[Aloysius]

The Council of Ephesus, early on gave Mary the title of the holy THEOTOKOS- or God-bearer.

that's not 1500 yrs... that's about a couple centuries (431 AD). and to prove devotions to Mary had already been in existence when the council declared this: people paraded through the streets in celebration after this decree.

from very ancient times we find Christian writings on the importance of Mary. if I remember correctly I believe Augustine thought of her as the new Eve if Christ was the new Adam (I could be wrong, I'm not sure if Augustine thought that or not but I know it's very anceint and venerable Church tradition)

[thessalonian]

The doctrine is that Mary co-operated and still co-operaties with the plan of redemption. Co in the latin means with, not equal or another as Protestants want to twist it. So you ask is there any sign of it in the early Church writings.

"Just as Eve, wife of Adam, yet still a virgin, became by her disobedience the cause of death for herself and the whole human race, so Mary, too, espoused yet a virgin, became by her obedience the cause of salvation for herself and the whole human race." [3]

This is from St. Irenaus. Biblically of course it is exemplified in scripture "let it be done unto me according to your word". This is the first step in Mary's cooperation in the plan of redemption of mankind. I don't see how it can be denied.

St. Jerome said: "Death through Eve, life through Mary."
Otheres throughout the ages, while not using the term co-redemptrix have stated the essence of the doctrine in a similar manner. So you are quite wrong. It is not a late developement of doctrine, i.e. new doctrine. It has always been in Catholic teaching. Current teaching just makes it more explicit. It is not dogma yet.

[son_of_angels]

Co-redemptrix is a term that may be being abused here. Mary is Co-Redemptrix in that she is the summit of the whole concept of "co-redemption", according to the prophecy, "And a sword shall pierce your heart also." We believe that in a spiritual way she suffered a martyrdom of love through the crucifixion, thus her suffering was joined, uniquely and supremely as the Mother of God, with Christ.

In the same way we experience union, however to a lesser degree, with her when we cooperate with the sufferings of Christ in our own lives, a thing called "co-redemption." This gives meaning to every suffering which we endure, for we are walking with the crucified Christ. The catechism especially points to this in 1508

[quote]1508 The Holy Spirit gives to some a special charism of healing118 so as to make manifest the power of the grace of the risen Lord. But even the most intense prayers do not always obtain the healing of all illnesses. Thus St. Paul must learn from the Lord that "my grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness," and that the sufferings to be endured can mean that "in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his Body, that is, the Church."[/quote]

I think also of the notion from Romans 12:1 "offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, dedicated and acceptable to God" (NJB). Yet elsewhere Paul speaks explicitly about the efficacy and supremecy of the sufferings of Christ himself. How then will these things avail us if not to participate in the sufferings which Christ himself suffered? This is why Mary is Co-Redemptrix, because she joined, being the Mother of God, perfectly and prophetically according to Scripture, her own sufferings to those of Christ.

[dspen2005]

she has not been declared co-redemptrix as being a dogma of the Faith -- there are groups that are pushing for this to be done -- the so-called Fifth Marian Dogma. She has been named Mediatrix of All Grace (if I am not mistakened)

[Benedict]

[quote name='Jesuspaidtheprice' date='Oct 12 2005, 07:10 AM']What early sources do we have on such devotion to Mary as the Catholic Church professes today?
[/quote]
[i]Sub Tuum Praesidium [/i](~250 AD)

We fly to your patronage,
O Holy Mother of God,
despise not our petitions
in our necessities,
but deliver us from all danger,
O ever glorious and blessed Virgin.

The early Church prayed the [i]Sub Tuum Praesidium [/i]to ask the Blessed Virgin for her prayers.

[photosynthesis]

"It was through the Blessed Virgin Mary that Jesus came into the world, and it is also through her that he must reign in the world." - St. Louis Marie de Montfort

while he's not an early Church father, he is one of the most prolific Marian writers of the Church.

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='photosynthesis' date='Oct 13 2005, 04:28 PM']"It was through the Blessed Virgin Mary that Jesus came into the world, and it is also through her that he must reign in the world."  - St. Louis Marie de Montfort

while he's not an early Church father, he is one of the most prolific Marian writers of the Church.
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[/quote]

Now I'm a Catholic and statements like that still make me cringe.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Oct 13 2005, 04:20 PM']Now I'm a Catholic and statements like that still make me cringe. 
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[/quote]

De Monfort goes about as far as you can I think. But I believe that it is our lack of understanding that makes us cringe rather than an error on his part. In the context of the Old Testament and the Queen Mother I do not think his words are out of line. The spiritual birth of God's children is accomplished through Mary. All is through her because all grace came in to the world through her. This is not contradictory but complentary to it being through Christ.

Blessings

[Brother Adam]

Certianly, I'm merely commenting on the difficulty former Protestants experience with certain statements. Then again I would need more clarification on what the statement actually means by reading it in context.

[phatcatholic]

yea, Montefort's words are a major obstacle to protestants. i usually point out that his words are passionate and devotional in nature. they aren't meant to be theologically precise. these articles help too:

[url="http://www.mark-shea.com/poetry.html"]http://www.mark-shea.com/poetry.html[/url]
[url="http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/a81.htm"]http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/a81.htm[/url]

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[thessalonian]

[quote name='phatcatholic' date='Oct 14 2005, 09:24 AM']yea, Montefort's words are a major obstacle to protestants. i usually point out that his words are passionate and devotional in nature. they aren't meant to be theologically precise. these articles help too:

[url="http://www.mark-shea.com/poetry.html"]http://www.mark-shea.com/poetry.html[/url]
[url="http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/a81.htm"]http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/a81.htm[/url]

pax christi,
phatcatholic
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[/quote]


Thanks phat. Those articles put a whole new light on the subject. Especially Shea's. I grew today in understanding. Praise the Lord!

[Cam42]

The term "co-redemptrix" is properly translated "the woman with the redeemer" or more literally "she who buys back with [the redeemer]." The prefix "co" comes from the Latin term "cum" which means "with" and not "equal to." Co-redemptrix therefore as applied to Mary refers to her exceptional cooperation with and under her divine son Jesus Christ, in the redemption of the human family, as manifested in Christian Scripture.

The New Testament prophecy of Simeon in the temple also reveals the suffering, co-redemptive mission of Mary in direct union with her Redeemer son in their one unified work of redemption:

[quote name='Lk. 2:34-35']Simeon blessed them, and said to Mary, his mother, 'Behold, this child is set for the fall and rise of many in Israel, and will be a sign of contradiction, and a sword shall pierce through your own soul, too.[/quote]

The earliest Christian writers and Fathers of the Church explained Marian co-redemption with great profundity in simplicity in the first theological model of Mary as the "New Eve." Essentially, they articulated that as Eve, the first "mother of the living" (Gen. 3:20), was directly instrumental with Adam, the father of the human race, in the loss of grace for all humanity, so too Mary, the "New Eve," was directly instrumental with Jesus Christ, whom St. Paul calls the "New Adam" (Cf. 1 Cor. 15:45-48), in the restoration of grace to all humanity. In the words of 2nd century Church Father, St. Irenaeus: "Just as Eve, wife of Adam, yet still a virgin, became by her disobedience the cause of death for herself and the whole human race, so Mary, too, espoused yet a virgin, became by her obedience the cause of salvation for herself and the whole human race."

Arguably the most commonly posed objection to the use of Co-redemptrix (let alone any potential definition of the doctrine) is its perceived opposition to Christian ecumenism. Therefore we must begin with an accurate definition of authentic Christian ecumenism and its appropriate corresponding activity as understood by the Catholic Church.

In his papal document on ecumenism Ut Unum Sint ("that they all may be one" (Jn. 17:21), Pope John Paul II defines authentic Christian ecumenism in terms of prayer "as the soul" and dialogue "as the body" working towards the ultimate goal of true and lasting Christian unity. At the same time, the Catholic imperative to work and strive for Christian unity does not permit in any degree the reduction or dilution of Catholic doctrinal teaching, as such would both lack Catholic integrity and concurrently be misleading in dialogue with other non-Catholic Christians as to what the Catholic Church truly believes.

As the Second Vatican Council clearly teaches in terms of ecumenical dialogue, "It is, of course, essential that doctrine be clearly presented in its entirety. Nothing is so foreign to the spirit of ecumenism as a false conciliatory approach which harms the purity of Catholic doctrine and obscures its assured genuine meaning."

But the climax of Mary's role as Co-redemptrix under her divine son takes place at the foot of the Cross, where the total suffering of the mother's heart is obediently united to the suffering of the Son's heart in fulfillment of the Father's plan of redemption (cf. Gal. 4:4). As the fruit of this redemptive suffering, Mary is given by the crucified Savior as the spiritual mother of all peoples,: "Woman, behold your son!' Then he said to the disciple, 'behold, your mother!" (Jn. 19:27). As described by Pope John Paul II, Mary was "spiritually crucified with her crucified son" at Calvary, and "her role as Co-redemptrix did not cease with the glorification of her Son." Even after the accomplishment of the acquisition of the graces of redemption at Calvary, Mary's co-redemptive role continues in the distribution of those saving graces to the hearts of humanity.

[quote name='L'Osservatore Romano' date=' January 1, 1997']Writings of the Fathers, the saints, and numerous popes attest that Our Lady did cooperate in an extraordinary way with her Son in the redemption of mankind. Pope John Paul II in his General Audience of Wednesday December 18, 1996 said: "Beginning with Simeon's prophecy, Mary intensely and mysteriously unites her life with Christ's sorrowful mission: she was to become her Son's faithful co-worker for the salvation of the human race."[/quote]

As John O'Connell writes:
[quote]Our Lord began His work of redemption at the moment of His conception in the womb of the Holy Virgin. But He accomplished the redemption of mankind through His expiatory and propitious death upon the Cross. Christ by His sacrificial death ransomed mankind from the objective guilt and debt of sin, reconciling a sinful humanity to the Father. He won for mankind an infinite store of merit and grace. This is the objective redemption.[/quote]

The Fathers of the Church saw in Mary's fiat to the Incarnation a participation in the redemption. Mary Immaculate's submission to the will of God that she become the Mother of the Redeemer constituted a remote cooperation in Christ's objective redemption of mankind. St. Irenaeus wrote in a famous passage:

[quote name='Adversus Haereses']So Mary ... was obedient and became to herself and to the whole human race a cause of salvation.[/quote]

There is a hint in St. Irenaeus' words of what later theologians would bring out more explicitly.

Pope Benedict XV wrote:

[quote]She renounced her mother's rights for the salvation of mankind and, as far as it depended on her, offered her Son to placate divine justice; so we may say that with Christ she redeemed mankind.[/quote]

In saying this, we are in no way diminishing the unique, singular salvific act of Jesus Christ. The Virgin Mary cooperated in our redemption under and subordinate to Christ. She merited [i]de congruo[/i] what Christ merited [i]de condigno[/i] in the theological formulation Suarez and repeated by Pope St. Pius X. God freely willed to associate the Blessed Mother in a intimate and direct way with her Son in the redemption of mankind.

While this is not dogma yet, it is an understanding that has prevaded the Church from the beginning. More dogma can be defined, precisely because our understanding of the divine plan can and will become clearer. God does not wish us to not understand His role, but rather he wants us to know Him; love Him; and serve Him; both in this world and in the next. Mary, by virtue of her fiat in Luke's gospel simply is the most perfect explaination of this understanding that we have.