Salve Regina

[dspen2005]

Does anyone know of people striking their breasts at the last part of the Salve Regina -- o clemens, o pia, o dulcis Virgo Maria??

[cmotherofpirl]

we do it 3 times there.

[phatcatholic]

oh yea? cool, i've never heard of that

[dspen2005]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Oct 15 2005, 12:42 AM']we do it 3 times there.
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[/quote]

why?

[journeyman]

A discussion board where they were also discussing striking the breast three times -- in the Confiteor - and sometimes during the Agnus Dei - and sometimes during the Salve Regina (the why is only incidentally addressed - but it appears to be because there is a three fold repeitition - as in the old phrasing "mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa")
[url="http://forum.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=23451"]http://forum.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=23451[/url]

[phatcatholic]

cool, thanks man!

[CatholicWarrior]

[quote name='dspen2005' date='Oct 14 2005, 08:52 PM']Does anyone know of people striking their breasts at the last part of the Salve Regina -- o clemens, o pia, o dulcis Virgo Maria??
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It's "Old School" -- and I still do it, even though nearly nobody in my parish does. I don't drop the old things from Mass. They were there for a reason.

[StColette]

I've heard of this. Might start doing it. Gotta love tradition

[phatcatholic]

[b]word[/b]

[journeyman]

Is it tradition to take the physical gestures from one place in the liturgy and move thtem to another location, simply because there is a three fold phrasing where it might seem to fit?

[StColette]

[quote name='journeyman' date='Oct 22 2005, 10:39 PM']Is it tradition to take the physical gestures from one place in the liturgy and move thtem to another location, simply because there is a three fold phrasing where it might seem to fit?
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Well, considering that the striking of the breast is a form of showing sorrow I do not see why it can not be used in other parts of the Mass as a sign of sorrow and even outside of Mass.

In fact heres a little bit about the gesture of striking the breast.

When it is done:

* at the Mass, formally: at each "mea culpa" during the Confiteor; at the Nobis Quoque Peccatoribus (priest); three times during the Agnus Dei; and three times during the Domine, Non Sum Dignus
* informally: at the "forgive us our trespasses" ("dimitte nobis debita nostra") in the "Our Father"; any time to express penitence or remorse inside or outside of the Liturgy

www.kensmen.com/catholic/posture.html

The early Christians were familiar with the practice, as St. Augustine and St. Jerome testify. "No sooner have you heard the word 'Confiteor'", says the former, "than you strike your breast. What does this mean except that you wish to bring to light what is concealed in the breast, and by this act to cleanse your hidden sins?" (Sermo de verbis Domini, 13). We strike our breast", declares St. Jerome, "because the breast is the seat of evil thoughts: we wish to dispel these thoughts, we wish to purify our hearts" (In Ezechiel, c. xviii). A warrant for these statements is found in the Psalmist: A contrite and humbled heart, O God, Thou wilt not despise (Ps, l.,19). The petitioner at the Throne of Mercy would chasten his heart and offer it as a sacrifice to God who healeth the broken of heart and bindeth up their wounds (Ps. cxlvi, 3). The ancient Christians were accustomed to strike the breast when they heard mention made or sensual sins; at the "Forgive us our trespasses" of the Pater Noster; and in detestation of the crime of the Jews, at the words of the Gospel, "Thou hast a devil", applied to Christ.

[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02751a.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02751a.htm[/url]

[journeyman]

having read through the 12 or so pages of Fides Cam hot stuff Thumper etc et al, discussing saying the rosary during Mass . . . and the "holding hands" during the Our Father thread . . . and other "liturgical abuse" debates/discussions, I'd be reluctant to "add" gestures . . .

but then I'm not much for rocking the boat

[phatcatholic]

i'm asking this question b/c i don't know: couldn't it be equated to making the sign of the cross, and bowing at the name of Jesus, and other traditional forms of popular piety that aren't technically listed in the GIRM but are certainly permissible?

[journeyman]

I don't know either

Follow-up: Crucifixes and Bows [from 06-15-2004]
[url="http://www.st-thomascamas.org/holymass/crucifixesbows.htm"]http://www.st-thomascamas.org/holymass/crucifixesbows.htm[/url]

As always our attentive readers see gaps in my replies. I will try to clear up any doubts. Regarding the June 1 column, a reader asked if the bows toward the altar when crossing the sanctuary applied to servers as well as priests, or should they bow toward the crucifix.

These bows should be made by all to the altar whenever crossing in front of it, except in those cases when one is moving in procession.

The reason that the altar has preference over the crucifix is because the symbolic value of the altar as representative of Christ is theologically far stronger than that of the crucifix.

This symbolism was felt far more strongly in ancient times, before it became customary to venerate the tabernacle and place the crucifix upon or near the altar. But the altar conserves its central role as symbol of Christ himself, present in the midst of the assembly as victim and as food from heaven.

St. Ambrose of Milan says "For what is the altar of Christ if not the image of the Body of Christ" and elsewhere "the Altar represents the Body (of Christ) and the Body of Christ is on the altar" (see Catechism, No. 1383).

Some Fathers even hazard to say that the altar "is" Christ, a statement which is true in a sense but which today needs to be nuanced so as to avoid causing an erroneous parallel between the symbolic presence in the altar and the substantial presence of Christ in the Eucharist.

This is why the gesture of respect for the altar differs from that of the tabernacle, for as indicated by the General Instruction of the Roman Missal, No. 274-275, "A genuflection indicates adoration ... while a bow signifies reverence and honor shown to the persons themselves or to the signs that represent them."

At the same time, the genuflection toward the tabernacle is made at the beginning and end of Mass only if the tabernacle is within the precincts of the sanctuary. If the tabernacle is within an adoration chapel, then only the bow toward the altar is made at the beginning and end of Mass.

Several readers asked if the different bows indicated in GIRM No. 275 were for everybody or only the priest. The text states:

"There are two kinds of bows: a bow of the head and a bow of the body.

"a. A bow of the head is made when the three Divine Persons are named together and at the names of Jesus, of the Blessed Virgin Mary, and of the Saint in whose honor Mass is being celebrated.

"b. A bow of the body, that is to say a profound bow, is made to the altar; during the prayers 'Munda cor meum' (Almighty God, cleanse my heart) and 'In spiritu humilitatis' (Lord God, we ask you to receive); in the Creed at the words 'Et incarnatus est' (by the power of the Holy Spirit ... made man); in the Roman Canon at the words 'Supplices te rogamus' (Almighty God, we pray that your angel). The same kind of bow is made by the deacon when he asks for a blessing before the proclamation of the Gospel. In addition, the priest bows slightly as he speaks the words of the Lord at the consecration."

Taking a cue from several questions I remark the following.

The bows mentioned in this number are made by whoever recites the prayer to which the gesture is attached. Thus, in those prayers recited only by the priest, only he makes a bow at this moment.

In prayers said in common all bow at the indicated moments. Thus, for example, everybody should make a bow of the head during the Gloria at both mentions of the name Jesus Christ but not when the priest mentions the name during the presidential prayers.

The GIRM however is not exhaustive and it is not necessarily true that everything not specifically mandated is therefore forbidden.

There are some bows which are either not explicitly stipulated, or are stipulated only for bishops but are customarily extended to the priest.

For example, it is a common practice for servers to bow toward the priest after they bring the missal to the chair, when they bring the water and wine, and then again after the washing of the hands. While not obligatory these customs may be continued.

Likewise those Catholics who have the custom of bowing the head on hearing the name of Jesus may continue to do so even though this gesture is not mandated in the liturgy. For here we are dealing with a pious custom, not a liturgical act. ZE04061525

[journeyman]

and on topic for the original topic:

87.
QUERY: During the recitation of certain formularies, for example, the <Confiteor, Agnus Dei, Domine, non sum dignus>, the accompanying gestures on the part of both priest and people are not always the same: some strike their breast three times; others, once during such formularies. What is the lawful practice to be followed? REPLY: In this case it is helpful to recall: 1. gestures and words usually complement each other; 2. in this matter as in others the liturgical reform has sought authenticity and simplicity, in keeping with SC art. 34: "The rites should be marked by a noble simplicity." Whereas in the Roman Missal promulgated by authority of the Council of Trent meticulous gestures usually accompanied the words, the rubrics of the Roman Missal as reformed by authority of Vatican Council II are marked by their restraint with regard to gestures. This being said: a. The words, <Through my own fault> in the <Confiteor> are annotated in the reformed Roman Missal with the rubric: "Thy strike their breast" (<Ordo Missae> no. 3). In the former Missal at the same place the rubric read this way: "He strikes his breast three times." Therefore, it seems that the breast is not to be struck three times by anyone in reciting the words, whether in Latin or another language, even if the tripled formulary is said (<mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa>). One striking of the breast is enough. Clearly, also, one gesture is enough in those languages in which the words expressing fault are translated in a simpler form, for example in English, <I have sinned through my own fault>; in French <Oui, j'ai vraiment peche'>. b. The special restraint of the reformed Roman Missal is also clear regarding the other texts mentioned, the <Agnus Dei> and <Domine, non sum dignus>, expressions of repentance and humility accompanying the breaking of the bread and the call of the faithful to communion.
As noted in the Reply no. 2 of the comments in Not 14 (1978) 301, when the rubrics of the Missal of Paul VI say nothing, it is not to be thereby inferred that the former rubrics must be followed (see no. 51 above). The reformed Missal does not supplement but supplants the former Missal. The old Missal at the <Agnus Dei> had the directive "striking his breast three times" and the same for the <Domine, non sum dignus>. But because the new Missal says nothing on this point (<Ordo Missae>, nos. 131 and 133), there is no reason for requiring any gesture to be added to these invocations: Not 14 (1978) 534-535, no. 10.
[url="http://www.christusrex.org/www1/mcitl/girmappx2.html"]http://www.christusrex.org/www1/mcitl/girmappx2.html[/url]

and off topic again

21.
QUERY 1: After communion should the faithful be seated or not? REPLY: After communion they may either kneel, stand, or sit. Accordingly the GIRM no. 21 gives this rule: "The people sit. . .if this seems useful during the period of silence after communion." Thus it is a matter of option, not obligation. The GIRM no. 121, should, therefore, be interpreted to match no. 21: Not 10 (1974) 407.
QUERY 2: In liturgical assemblies there is a great variety of gestures and postures during a celebration. For example, should the people: a. stand during the prayer over the gifts; b. kneel after the <Sanctus> and during the entire eucharistic prayer; c. sit after communion? REPLY: As usual the GIRM gives simple rules to solve these questions (GIRM no. 21): a. The people stand while the presidential prayers are being said, therefore, during the prayer over the gifts. b. Thy also stand throughout the eucharistic prayer, except the consecration. The practice is for the faithful to remain kneeling from the epiclesis before the consecration until the memorial acclamation after it. c. The people may sit during the silence after communion.
The points determined are in no way to be considered trivial, since their purpose is to ensure uniformity in posture in the assembly celebrating the eucharist as a manifestation of the community's unity in faith and worship. The people often give the impression immediately after the <Sanctus> and even more often after the consecration by their diverse postures that they are unmindful of being participants in the Church's liturgy, which is the supreme action of a community and not a time for individuals to isolate themselves in acts of private devotion: Not 14 (1978) 300-301, no. 1.
QUERY 3: In some places kneelers have been taken out of the churches. Thus, the people can only stand or sit and this detracts from the reverence and adoration due to the eucharist. REPLY: The appointments of a place of worship have some relationship to the customs of the particular locale. For example, in the East there are carpets; in the Roman basilicas, only since modern times, there are usually chairs without kneelers, so as to accommodate large crowds. There is nothing to prevent the faithful from kneeling on the floor to show their adoration, no matter how uncomfortable this may be. In cases where kneeling is not possible (see GIRM no. 21), a deep bow and a respectful bearing are signs of the reverence and adoration to be shown at the time of the consecration and communion: Not 14 (1978) 302-303, no. 4.