theivery

[Aloysius]

If someone stole money from you, would you be morally justified in taking back the same amount from them since technically they owe it to you?

I know Christ said to give them your cloak also, but (1) that is morally virtuous but not always morally required of a person and (2) that presupposes a man who is desperate trying to rob you for basic things, what if they are being just plain greedy?

Anyway, I tend to think that you would be morally justified if someone unjustly took something from you in justly taking something of equal value from them. Isn't that justice?

(and this is not just because I've always dreamed of being a good-hearted but crafty and artful pick pocket! )

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Oct 26 2005, 01:42 PM']
Anyway, I tend to think that you would be morally justified if someone unjustly took something from you in justly taking something of equal value from them.  Isn't that justice? 

[right][snapback]771151[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
You'd be a vigilante. That's not justice. You can't properly administer justice for yourself -- it has to be done by an impartial judge in possession of the full set of facts.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Oct 26 2005, 01:42 PM']If someone stole money from you, would you be morally justified in taking back the same amount from them since technically they owe it to you?

I know Christ said to give them your cloak also, but (1) that is morally virtuous but not always morally required of a person and (2) that presupposes a man who is desperate trying to rob you for basic things, what if they are being just plain greedy?

Anyway, I tend to think that you would be morally justified if someone unjustly took something from you in justly taking something of equal value from them.  Isn't that justice? 

(and this is not just because I've always dreamed of being a good-hearted but crafty and artful pick pocket! )
[right][snapback]771151[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

If someone stole an item from you and you could prove it was yours and you were able to wrest it away from them, you would be morally justified no questions asked.

But if this is a case of a store cheating you by a quarter when they gave you change and so you decide to shoplift a candy bar to compensate, then it doesn't matter if you feel morally justified, you will be in legal trouble if you are caught.

[Jaime]

Nope I believe its called stealing.

[Guest T-Bone]

If someone steals your car, and you see it on the street, you would be justified in taking it back. If you knew who it was, and stole [i]thier[/i] car instead, you would not be justified...

[toledo_jesus]

no, you would not be justified. There are legal approaches you can pursue.

[avemaria40]

no, call the police

[ofpheritup]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Oct 26 2005, 01:42 PM']If someone stole money from you, would you be morally justified in taking back the same amount from them since technically they owe it to you?

[right][snapback]771151[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

Owe it to you? Weird expression.

They STOLE from you,

Lending, borrowing, asking equals owing. Stealing....uh-uh.

But yes if someone STEALS from you then YES I believe you have the right to take it back.

[cmotherofpirl]

If someone walks off with one of my possessions I certainly have the right to retrieve it.

[Aloysius]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Oct 27 2005, 09:54 AM']If someone walks off with one of my possessions I certainly have the right to retrieve it.
[right][snapback]771733[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
precisely my thinking.

it's not 'stealing' to take it back, stealing means you take something that rightfully belongs to someone else. you are taking back your property.

does that include money? if someone takes money from you could you take back from them that same amount of money? I would think so. the values are completely equal, and they don't have the moral right to have that amount of money from you.

so maybe I shall study the art of pickpocketing for just such an occassion as someone stealing from me that I could take it back slyly... : lol

[RC_]

[quote name='toledo_jesus' date='Oct 26 2005, 06:40 PM']no, you would not be justified.  There are legal approaches you can pursue.
[right][snapback]771371[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

The legal approach would be to put your key in the ignition and drive away. Neither illegal nor immoral.

[quote name='avemaria40' date='Oct 26 2005, 07:59 PM']no, call the police
[right][snapback]771461[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

Why waste valuable police man power when you can just drive off with your car?

[quote name='cmotherofpearl']If someone walks off with one of my possessions I certainly have the right to retrieve it. [/quote]

Yes you do, both legally and morally...

Edited October 27, 2005 by RC_

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

When I found my "lost" pencils in other kids' desks (in plain view of course) in elementary school, I just took them back.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='toledo_jesus' date='Oct 26 2005, 06:40 PM']no, you would not be justified.  There are legal approaches you can pursue.
[right][snapback]771371[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
I asked this question of some defense attorney friends this evening.

If you're taking back your own property, you are justified in doing so. If, as in Al's original post, you're taking something that's not originally your property but something of theirs of equal value, you're not justified -- you're also guilty of theft.

[Aloysius]

so what about money. they take $100 from you, you take $100 from them? is not that still your property? or does it have to be the same exact bills?

while I'm interested in what civil law says, I'm more interested in what moral law says.

so if they took an object from you, and you took the cash from them that the object is worth, I assume civil law would say you're guilty of theft too, but is that not moral and just? Or if they took cash and you took something apraised of the same amount of that cash? it seems that would expiate the crime (well, not for them cause they didn't make an act of will to expiate it, but objectively in the balance of what is just and what is unjust, it is expiated and balanced as if you had bought that thing from them for that money)

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Oct 27 2005, 09:33 PM']so what about money.  they take $100 from you, you take $100 from them?  is not that still your property?
[right][snapback]772484[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
If you're taking back the exact bills they took from you, and you can definitively prove that -- e.g., if a pickpocket stole $100, had it in his hand, you chased, tackled, and overpowered him, and took it back -- you'd be on fairly firm footing.

But, if someone you knew came to your house, took $100, you discovered it later and knew it was them then went to THEIR house, went in, and took $100, you could easily find yourself in hot water.

[Aloysius]

[quote name='Sojourner' date='Oct 27 2005, 10:37 PM']If you're taking back the exact bills they took from you, and you can definitively prove that -- e.g., if a pickpocket stole $100, had it in his hand, you chased, tackled, and overpowered him, and took it back -- you'd be on fairly firm footing.

But, if someone you knew came to your house, took $100, you discovered it later and knew it was them then went to THEIR house, went in, and took $100, you could easily find yourself in hot water.
[right][snapback]772489[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
by civil law, yeah.. but I think you'd be morally justified in doing so. I think you would not be morally required to follow civil law in that instance, you are always free to seek justice and if civil law gets in the way of justice then civil law must yield to what is more just.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Oct 27 2005, 09:39 PM']by civil law, yeah..  but I think you'd be morally justified in doing so.  I think you would not be morally required to follow civil law in that instance, you are always free to seek justice and if civil law gets in the way of justice then civil law must yield to what is more just.
[right][snapback]772493[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
I'd really just love to be there when you try to explain this to the judge. Love to.

"Really, judge, I was totally justified in doing it because I was following the higher moral law."

[Aloysius]

lol yeah if you get caught, you're screwed. if you are a father and husband family man type guy, you shouldn't put yourself in such risk. if you have no dependents really and are willing to take that risk, so long as you are prudent it is alright.

and yeah, I probably would try to use that defense, and it'd be really funny. :

or, if they did find out it was me and there was like a warrant for my arrest or something, I'd flee to some Church or monastery and attempt to claim sanctuary. it'd cause a whole big news story, maybe i'd get to the supreme court and there'd somehow be a reinstatement of sanctuary laws : that'd be awesome

[Sojourner]

Yeah ... I've always thought it would be awesome to have a criminal record too.

[Aloysius]

I think it'd be awesome to claim sanctuary when the state is trying to arrest you for something that you do which was actually morally just.