Could Mary have sinned?

[scardella]

The guy on [url="http://www.catholic.com"]Catholic Answers[/url] this afternoon speculated that Mary only had the free choice between non-sins. He called it passe non piccare. (Is that how you spell it?)

[url="ftp://radio.catholic.com/calive/2005/MP3/ca051027.mp3"]Click here for an MP3 of the Show.[/url] It's about 10 minutes into the show.

His statement bothers me. The Immaculate Conception states that she was born w/out Original Sin. I don't see why it would limit her ability to choose to sin. It would seem that she would have been bound to accept the Announcement by Gabriel if that were the case. The passage in Luke implies this difficulty in making the decision that shouldn't be there if it were not her choice.

Therefore, I think that she was in the same state as Adam and Eve, pre-fall, where she could have sinned, but she did not have the stain of sin, nor the disorder of the passions that Original Sin effects. That sort of understanding may be supplemented by various saints' saying that Mary was the "new Eve."

So, what do YOU think?

[Didacus]

Those who do not have the ability to sin experience a greater freedom than those who can. i believe Mary had such 'greater' freedom, in that she was incapable of sinning.

[Era Might]

Yes, she could have sinned. To deny such would be to deny her humanity. Your distinctions vis a vis original sin and concupiscence are correct.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='Didacus' date='Oct 28 2005, 06:47 AM']Those who do not have the ability to sin experience a greater freedom than those who can.  i believe Mary had such 'greater' freedom, in that she was incapable of sinning.
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??? Who has not had the ability? I guess I see it differently. Mary did not sin by God's grace. She most certainly endured temptation but did not fail ever ONLY because of the grace of God. This had to have been her will in complete union with God's will. Thus I think it had to be will against temptation rather than just passive inability to sin. Most certainly satan tried to bring her under the power of sin as well as her son.

[Aloysius]

Mary was the New Eve. it was her role to make the choice either to accept the will of God where Eve had rejected the will of God. she could have rejected it, she could have sinned. without the possibility that she could have sinned, there is no reason for her to be sinless in the first place because then she wouldn't have been in the pre-fall state becoming the New Eve.

[Thumper]

The Catholic theologian, Karl Rahner, had an interesting insight into this--though perhaps I find it interesting because I agree!

Basically, he affirmed the Church's teaching on the Immaculate Conception, but noted that Mary's preservation from sin did not remove the need for her to continually choose to be obedient to and cooperative with God throughout her life. The fact that her free will remained intact, and yet that she did not sin, makes her an amazing example of the power of God's grace. It also makes her the example of Christian discipleship par excellence.

It is hard to consider Mary as a model for discipleship if she was preserved from sin in such a way that she lost her free will--where, then, would the comparison between her life and mine be? Rather, if she is preserved from sin, but still has to choose to follow Christ, I can find in her the hope that God's grace is truly redemptive, and that a human being totally in love with God in Christ can indeed choose to live in holiness.

[Proud2BCatholic139]

No,

what I beleive, is that mary was concieved without original sin.
There fore, she could have never sinned. Pure of heart. She is the Mother of God. As being the mother of God, she was sinless.

[Benedict]

[quote]what I beleive, is that mary was concieved without original sin.
There fore, she could have never sinned.[/quote]
Eve was created without original sin. She sinned.

[scardella]

[quote name='Proud2BCatholic139' date='Oct 28 2005, 08:15 AM']No,

what I beleive, is that mary was concieved without original sin.
There fore, she could have never sinned. Pure of heart. She is the Mother of God. As being the mother of God, she was sinless.
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Note that nobody (so far) has claimed that she had sinned, but that she COULD have sinned.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Thumper' date='Oct 28 2005, 07:48 AM']It is hard to consider Mary as a model for discipleship if she was preserved from sin in such a way that she lost her free will--where, then, would the comparison between her life and mine be?  Rather, if she is preserved from sin, but still has to choose to follow Christ, I can find in her the hope that God's grace is truly redemptive, and that a human being totally in love with God in Christ can indeed choose to live in holiness.
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Yep.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Proud2BCatholic139' date='Oct 28 2005, 09:15 AM']No,

what I beleive, is that mary was concieved without original sin.
There fore, she could have never sinned. Pure of heart. She is the Mother of God. As being the mother of God, she was sinless.
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But because of free will she could have sinned if she had wanted to.

[termitescoming4u!]

i agree with cmotherofpirl's reply.

[ofpheritup]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Oct 28 2005, 09:40 AM']But because of free will she could have sinned if she had wanted to.
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She had the same free will we have.

[Cam42]

Could Mary have sinned?

Quite simply put, NO. Regardless of what personal opinion is on the matter, the Church teaches that Mary could not have sinned. Why?

The reason that she could not have sinned is because she was preserved from these defects by God’s grace; from the first instant of her existence she was in the state of sanctifying grace and was free from the corrupt nature original sin brings.

We should look to Luke 1:28;

[quote] et ingressus angelus ad eam dixit have gratia plena Dominus tecum benedicta tu in mulieribus[/quote]

That is an important understanding. She is full of grace. It is not the same as when we are baptized, the relationship of God's Grace to Mary is totally different and unique. It is a characteristic of Mary. It is part of her being. She is not eveloped in it as we are. The sanctifying grace is not given sacramentally, as it is with you and I, but rather it was granted from the moment of conception.

Her will was illumined and supported by this special grace from the moment of her conception. Another way of looking at it, she was endowed with sanctifying grace from the moment of her conception to the moment of her death, unceasingly.

This might seem as though her free will would be in some way compromised, but that could not be farther from the truth. Her free will cooperated completely and fully with God at all times. It was part of the endowment of sanctifying grace. It was freely given and was freely accepted at the moment of conception. Hence the Immaculate Conception.

Let's look to Luke 1:38;

[quote]dixit autem Maria ecce ancilla Domini fiat mihi secundum verbum tuum et discessit ab illa angelus[/quote]

and Luke 2:35;

[quote]et tuam ipsius animam pertransiet gladius ut revelentur ex multis cordibus cogitationes[/quote]

Finally, look at Galations 4:4;

[quote]unum corpus et unus spiritus sicut vocati estis in una spe vocationis vestrae[/quote]

There are some who argue that this can't be the case, but looking at this from a Catholic point of view she is the prototypical Christian. She is what we strive to be as Christians.

Her Magnificat is appropos:

[quote name='Luke 1:46-55']et ait Maria magnificat anima mea Dominum et exultavit spiritus meus in Deo salutari meo quia respexit humilitatem ancillae suae ecce enim ex hoc beatam me dicent omnes generationes quia fecit mihi magna qui potens est et sanctum nomen eius et misericordia eius in progenies et progenies timentibus eum fecit potentiam in brachio suo dispersit superbos mente cordis sui deposuit potentes de sede et exaltavit humiles esurientes implevit bonis et divites dimisit inanes suscepit Israhel puerum suum memorari misericordiae sicut locutus est ad patres nostros Abraham et semini eius in saecula[/quote]

It was her free giving of herself at her conception that is a witness to the fact that she could not have sinned. Why, because of her free giving of her will she told sin no, and yes to God at her conception....Totus Tuus.

N.B. The Latin usage is simply for accuracy's sake. It is easier to show the strength of the words in Sacred Scripture.

[ofpheritup]

[quote name='Cam42' date='Oct 28 2005, 07:04 PM']

It was her free giving of herself at her conception that is a witness to the fact that she could not have sinned.  Why, because of her free giving of her will she told sin no, and yes to God at her conception....Totus Tuus.

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I do not understand. How could Mary give herself to God at the moment of her conception? She was like what, seconds old.
Where is this in scripture? HELP.

Are you sure we are not talking about Jesus' conception?

[Cam42]

[quote name='ofpheritup' date='Oct 28 2005, 11:00 PM']I do not understand. How could Mary give herself to God at the moment of her conception? She was like what, seconds old.
Where is this in scripture?     HELP.

Are you sure we are not talking about Jesus' conception?
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No, we are talking about Mary's conception. The Immaculate Conception. We are not talking about the Virgin Birth, which would be the birth of Christ. (Remember, Christ was conceived by the Holy Spirit, begotten not made, one in being with the Father.)

[quote name='Ineffabilis Deus']Alexander VII, who authoritatively and decisively declared the mind of the Church: "Concerning the most Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of God, ancient indeed is that devotion of the faithful based on the belief that her soul, in the first instant of its creation and in the first instant of the soul's infusion into the body, was, by a special grace and privilege of God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, her Son and the Redeemer of the human race, preserved free from all stain of original sin. And in this sense have the faithful ever solemnized and celebrated the Feast of the Conception."[/quote]

[quote name='Ineffabilis Deus']They affirmed that the same Virgin is, and is deservedly, the first and especial work of God, escaping the fiery arrows the the evil one; that she is beautiful by nature and entirely free from all stain; that at her Immaculate Conception she came into the world all radiant like the dawn. For it was certainly not fitting that this vessel of election should be wounded by the common injuries, since she, differing so much from the others, had only nature in common with them, not sin. In fact, it was quite fitting that, as the Only-Begotten has a Father in heaven, whom the Seraphim extol as thrice holy, so he should have a Mother on earth who would never be without the splendor of holiness.[/quote]

[quote name='Ineffabilis Deus']Accordingly, by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, for the honor of the Holy and undivided Trinity, for the glory and adornment of the Virgin Mother of God, for the exaltation of the Catholic Faith, and for the furtherance of the Catholic religion, by the authority of Jesus Christ our Lord, of the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul, and by our own: "We declare, pronounce, and define that the doctrine which holds that the most Blessed Virgin Mary, in the first instance of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege granted by Almighty God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Savior of the human race, was preserved free from all stain of original sin, is a doctrine revealed by God and therefore to be believed firmly and constantly by all the faithful."[/quote]

What I have explained in the previous post is the explaination of the INFALLIBLE dogma that Mary was free from sin from her Immaculate Conception. And there is no explicit statement in scripture for this, but then again, there doesn't need to be. There is support for the position, but there is nothing explicit. Why? Because Scripture is part of Tradition, not vice versa. The Immaculate Conception comes to us as INFALLIBLE dogma from [url="http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9ineff.htm"]Ineffabilis Deus[/url]. This is the declaration, and it should help to answer your questions.

Incidentally, from the moment of our conception, we are full human beings. This cannot be denied. While we may have the stain of original sin, it doesn't mean that God cannot act in a miraculous way and eleviate that burden. As a matter of fact, he did, once, with Mary. However, when God communicated with Mary it was at the moment of her conception. He said, "You have a choice, Yes or No?" She said YES!!!!!! That yes is vocalized in the Magnificat, but had existed from the moment of her conception.

In short, the Immaculate Conception was a miracle. In short, the Blessed Virgin is the prototypical Christian. She gave herself first and completely to God, from the moment of her conception, without ceasing without distraction, without regret. It is her joy and our standard. We should strive to be like her, in all things. Again, Totus Tuus.

[Maria]

We cannot say that Mary may have, in fact, sinned, but I don't think it makes sense to say that she could not have sinned. She had chosen God, agreed. Choosing God does not in any way limit free will, agreed. She was full of grace, agreed. But, for humans, the choice is not made once and for all. The choice has to be re-made every day, every minute. Mary was so closely united to God that it would have been highly unlikely for her to sin, and would have made no sense and would have required a complete rejection of God (as opposed to a muddling sort of wandering away), but I don't see how it makes sense to say that Mary could not have rebelled/rejected God.

[qfnol31]

[quote name='Cam42' date='Oct 28 2005, 07:04 PM']Could Mary have sinned?

Quite simply put, NO.  Regardless of what personal opinion is on the matter, the Church teaches that Mary could not have sinned.  Why?

The reason that she could not have sinned is because she was preserved from these defects by God’s grace; from the first instant of her existence she was in the state of sanctifying grace and was free from the corrupt nature original sin brings.

We should look to Luke 1:28;
That is an important understanding.  She is full of grace.  It is not the same as when we are baptized, the relationship of God's Grace to Mary is totally different and unique.  It is a characteristic of Mary.  It is part of her being.  She is not eveloped in it as we are.  The sanctifying grace is not given sacramentally, as it is with you and I, but rather it was granted from the moment of conception.

Her will was illumined and supported by this special grace from the moment of her conception.  Another way of looking at it, she was endowed with sanctifying grace from the moment of her conception to the moment of her death, unceasingly.

This might seem as though her free will would be in some way compromised, but that could not be farther from the truth.  Her free will cooperated completely and fully with God at all times.  It was part of the endowment of sanctifying grace.  It was freely given and was freely accepted at the moment of conception.  Hence the Immaculate Conception.

Let's look to Luke 1:38;
and Luke 2:35;
Finally, look at Galations 4:4;
There are some who argue that this can't be the case, but looking at this from a Catholic point of view she is the prototypical Christian.  She is what we strive to be as Christians.

Her Magnificat is appropos:

[quote name='Luke 1:46-55']et ait Maria magnificat anima mea Dominum et exultavit spiritus meus in Deo salutari meo quia respexit humilitatem ancillae suae ecce enim ex hoc beatam me dicent omnes generationes quia fecit mihi magna qui potens est et sanctum nomen eius et misericordia eius in progenies et progenies timentibus eum fecit potentiam in brachio suo dispersit superbos mente cordis sui deposuit potentes de sede et exaltavit humiles esurientes implevit bonis et divites dimisit inanes suscepit Israhel puerum suum memorari misericordiae sicut locutus est ad patres nostros Abraham et semini eius in saecula[/quote]

It was her free giving of herself at her conception that is a witness to the fact that she could not have sinned. Why, because of her free giving of her will she told sin no, and yes to God at her conception....Totus Tuus.

N.B. The Latin usage is simply for accuracy's sake. It is easier to show the strength of the words in Sacred Scripture.
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We can dispell that grace once it is in us. Otherwise, this denies free will and it borders Revisionism, no?

[ofpheritup]

[quote name='Maria' date='Oct 29 2005, 12:44 AM']We cannot say that Mary may have, in fact, sinned, but I don't think it makes sense to say that she could not have sinned. She had chosen God, agreed. Choosing God does not in any way limit free will, agreed. She was full of grace, agreed. But, for humans, the choice is not made once and for all. The choice has to be re-made every day, every minute. Mary was so closely united to God that it would have been highly unlikely for her to sin, and would have made no sense and would have required a complete rejection of God (as opposed to a muddling sort of wandering away), but I don't see how it makes sense to say that Mary could not have rebelled/rejected God.
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I am going to go with Maria on this one. Mary was human, free will, choices, etc.

Back to her conception. She chose to be sinless. I am going to disagree. No one at their moment of conception chooses.

Conception is medically speaking the when the egg is feriilized.
It seems a little "out there" to say that anyone would have the ability to choose anything at that particular time. There is no brain to think, no lips to speak. That comes later. Much later.

Edited October 29, 2005 by ofpheritup

[Cam42]

[quote name='Maria' date=' Today, 01:44 AM']We cannot say that Mary may have, in fact, sinned, but I don't think it makes sense to say that she could not have sinned. She had chosen God, agreed. Choosing God does not in any way limit free will, agreed. She was full of grace, agreed. But, for humans, the choice is not made once and for all. The choice has to be re-made every day, every minute. Mary was so closely united to God that it would have been highly unlikely for her to sin, and would have made no sense and would have required a complete rejection of God (as opposed to a muddling sort of wandering away), but I don't see how it makes sense to say that Mary could not have rebelled/rejected God.[/quote]


[quote name='ofpheritup' date='Oct 29 2005, 07:34 AM']I am going to go  with Maria on this one. Mary was human, free will, choices, etc. 

Back to her conception. She chose to be sinless. I am going to disagree. No one at their moment of conception chooses. 

Conception is medically speaking the when the egg is feriilized.
It seems a little "out there" to say that anyone would have the ability to choose anything at that particular time. There is no brain to think, no lips to speak. That comes later.  Much later.
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It was precisely BECAUSE of her free will that she could not have sinned. Why? Because she chose freely, at the moment of her conception to participate in an "especial way" with God. God made sanctifying grace a characteristic of her person. That is not the case with us.

Stop thinking in the finite. God does not always operate in the finite. When He acts outside the Natural Law, that is a miracle. And the Immaculate Conception is most certainly that. Again, go back and read Ineffabilis Deus. It lays out the INFALLIBLE dogma. To hold a position otherwise is to deny the Catholic Church.

From the moment of her conception she participated with God in a different way. She was sinless. She chose to be that way. She vocalized this in the Magnificat. She could not have sinned, because at the moment of her conception, she CHOSE FREELY not to ever sin.

[quote name='qfnol31' date=' Today, 02:08 AM']We can dispell that grace once it is in us. Otherwise, this denies free will and it borders Revisionism, no?[/quote]

If you were talking about anyone other than Mary or Christ, then yes, it would border on Revisionism. However, because sanctifying grace is a characteristic of Mary, it is not Revisionism, and it does not border on it. What it is, is the Immaculate Conception. Because Mary's characteristics make her participation in the salvific work "especial," and unique, she could do nothing other than be obedient to the salvific work of God.

Again, Ineffabilis Deus sums up the whole meaning. And my assertations are completely in line with the INFALLIBLE pronouncement. To hold a position otherwise is to deny the Catholic Church.

[quote name='Ineffabilis Deus']Even the Council of Trent itself, when it promulgated the dogmatic decree concerning original sin, following the testimonies of the Sacred Scriptures, of the Holy Fathers and of the renowned Council, decreed and defined that all men are born infected by original sin; nevertheless, it solemnly declared that it had no intention of including the blessed and immaculate Virgin Mary, the Mother of God, in this decree and in the general extension of its definition. Indeed, considering the times and circumstances, the Fathers of Trent sufficiently intimated by this declaration that the Blessed Virgin Mary was free from the original stain; and thus they clearly signified that nothing could be reasonably cited from the Sacred Scriptures, from Tradition, or from the authority of the Fathers, which would in any way be opposed to so great a prerogative of the Blessed Virgin.[/quote]

This clearly shows that her prerogative was to ALWAYS do what God intended.