Friend missing Mass

[Dreamweaver]

I have a Catholic friend who is skipping Mass this Sunday and really doesn't think anything of it. He works on Sunday and there's a football game on Saturday.



He even thinks football is more important than the Mass.

Perhaps I can pray a rosary for him tonight.

[Proud2BCatholic139]

Yes...
Don't judge him. I'll be praying for your friend. Unfortunately, that is a sticky situation.

[photosynthesis]

a football game is no excuse to miss Mass. What about a Saturday evening Mass, or a Sunday evening mass?

[Aloysius]

so tell him strait up he's committing a mortal sin and will endanger his immortal soul by it, and that if he does this then he should not present himself for the eucharist again until he has been to confession.

[Cow of Shame]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Nov 4 2005, 04:19 PM']so tell him strait up he's committing a mortal sin and will endanger his immortal soul by it,
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I'm guessing this probably wouldn't work....people who don't go to church don't think about mortal sins. This sounds too much like scare tactics. Sometimes that works, but having been there/done that with not going to church on Sun during college, I admit that your condemnation would not have been compelling to me.

You could always try the whole parable angle...

Your best friend *ever* planned a dinner party, had spent all he had on it, and invited you to be his guest of honor. You accepted his invitation, but then decided not to show up.

Would you ever do this to one of your friends on earth? Why is it so much easier to dismiss Him? (well, 'cause he doesn't call us on the phone & chew us out, that's why) But He's no less devastated..

It's a bit cheesy in that version. I'm sure you can spruce it up to a more compelling argument.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

He probably thinks that God would want him to see the game. Afterall, "God wants us to have fun, right?"

God wants us to have fun with HIM!

God is good and generous...it's foolish enough of us to reject His generosity for something pathetic by comparison...it's worse to say that that pathetic thing is what God wanted for us in the first place.

Yeah...Jesus died in order to give us football.

[Dust's Sister]

I use to think it was no big deal to miss Mass, but now I know better, and I am more aware of the importance now, and don't worry, I been to confession.

[Aloysius]

[quote name='Cow of Shame' date='Nov 4 2005, 05:43 PM']I'm guessing this probably wouldn't work....people who don't go to church don't think about mortal sins.  This sounds too much like scare tactics.  Sometimes that works, but having been there/done that with not going to church on Sun during college, I admit that your condemnation would not have been compelling to me.

You could always try the whole parable angle...

Your best friend *ever* planned a dinner party, had spent all he had on it, and invited you to be his guest of honor.  You accepted his invitation, but then decided not to show up. 

Would you ever do this to one of your friends on earth?  Why is it so much easier to dismiss Him?  (well, 'cause he doesn't call us on the phone & chew us out, that's why)  But He's no less devastated..

It's a bit cheesy in that version.  I'm sure you can spruce it up to a more compelling argument.
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it seems he's really just skipping this one sunday, not making a habit out of it (which reflects even worse on his culpability so long as he doesn't have a good reason). it's not 'scare tactics'. it is the truth-- it is your Christian duty to inform him that in this action he is killing his soul plain and simple. he's got grave matter and full consent of the will, and a good Christian will be the agent to inform his conscience. it is mortal sin worthy of eternal damnation. a football game worth that? nope.

call it "scare tactics" if you like, it is the truth. People are damned for the sin of skipping mass, it kills the avenues for grace in the soul. He ougth to be admonished not to approach holy communion if he skips mass on sunday.

[Cow of Shame]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Nov 4 2005, 11:41 PM'] it's not 'scare tactics'.  it is the truth-- it is your Christian duty to inform him that in this action he is killing his soul plain and simple. 
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that's fine & dandy, but I'm guessing you'd prefer results over the guy simply ignoring you as a ([i]perceived[/i]) radical....

[Dreamweaver]

He lives at home with his parents, so I'm not sure how seriously he takes the Sunday obligation. I offered to go to a Sunday evening Mass with him, so unless he works killer hours, he should be able to come.

[photosynthesis]

[quote name='Dreamweaver' date='Nov 5 2005, 01:00 AM']He lives at home with his parents, so I'm not sure how seriously he takes the Sunday obligation. I offered to go to a Sunday evening Mass with him, so unless he works killer hours, he should be able to come.
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I hope so!

[Dreamweaver]

Ok, I got things settled out and such, things are good. : Thanks for your prayers. He actually only knows the locations of 2 churches in town, so going to a parish that has an evening Mass will be an adventure for him.

[missionseeker]

yay!
i hope tit is not too much of an adventure like Barney songs at Mass.

Edited November 5, 2005 by missionseeker

[beatty07]

I have to object to the assumption that this is a mortal sin. Grave matter and full freedom, sure, but full consent? Being told the truth doesn't mean he gets it or believes it. I'm not saying he has no culpability. I'm saying we have no right to assume that he has full culpability. With a lot of people, threatening Hell would be a disaster...confirming all their worst suspicions about Catholicism and driving them further away. Milk before solid food!

Nice move with the evening Mass invitation Dreamweaver!

[Aloysius]

whether or not he has full knowledge is not your concern. you are attempting to give him full knowledge, to do so you must tell him it is a mortal sin. you cannot judge his culpability.

it is grave matter and full consent of the will, not necessarily full knowledge, but again, that is not your concern. It is your job to inform his conscience.

especially in the stages BEFORE a mortal sin, it is unwise to just trust on some contigiency by which the person would not be culpable. you warn people of mortal sin if they're going to commit a sin of grave matter.

[beatty07]

Aloysius it looks like we basically agree on the situation. I certainly agree that helping someone see the truth is our responsibility, more than assessing their culpability.

I guess it depends on definitions, too. Back in the day, common usage of "mortal sin" didn't consider subjective factors like knowledge. It was used basically synonymously with "grave matter." But now the term is usually used in the more precise sense, where all three conditions are met. Under that definition (CCC 1857), we can't call a sin "mortal" for sure without knowing about full knowledge.

But maybe fudging a little is appropriate if there's no other way to communicate that skipping Mass is a big, big deal. I'd just hate to tell someone they had killed their soul if I didn't know it to be true. First, it could reorient their relationship with God into fear, and interfere with the grace that we know is working. Second, I would probably come off sounding cocksure and sanctimonious, and that would give scandal. Most of my friends are well aware that I'm not qualified to make that kind of judgment.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, it's just that I have so many friends in this situation...if I'm not seeing it straight then I want to correct that.

BTW Dreamweaver, did it work out with Mass last night?

[Aloysius]

objectively speaking, it is still accurate to call any sin of grave matter a mortal sin. whether or not a person is culpable for it says whether or not the person has mortally sinned, but a mortal sin (a sin with mortal potential) is always a mortal sin.

[Dreamweaver]

well, last night he told me that he doesn't want to go to Mass. Even though he's off of work, he has tons of homework to do.



Whats the easiest way to inform someone of the Sunday obligation without sounding "holier than thou"? At the very least, I'll tell him that he needs to go to confession before receiving the Eucharist.

[beatty07]

CCC 1857: "For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: 'Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent.'" This defines "mortal sin", not "sinning mortally." I acknowledged the other usage, even though I think it's obfuscatory and imprecise. But you can't toss out the usage defined in the CCC.

Edited November 6, 2005 by beatty07

[beatty07]

Dream that's a good idea. If you're that worried about sounding holier-than-thou, you probably won't!

Either way, there's a good chance he'll transfer his own guilt into anger at you...it doesn't necessarily mean you've failed.

Good luck.