Why ornate and expensive churches?

[AfroNova No Limit Soldier]

Please help me find specific sources/arguments regarding the following question posed by a high school senior to our youth group last night:

It is often pointed out by non-Catholics that because the Catholic Church has many ornate and costly buildings it is guilty of squandering money and focusing on the "trappings" rather than offering God true worship. Why do we build expensive & elaborate churches, e.g., St. Peter's Basilica?

I had some good arguments that changed the hearts of some, but nothing that really hit home for this kid. He's a very independent thinker & is genuinely seeking answers but wants something lucid & concrete.

Help!

JMJ

[homeschoolmom]

Why are we willing to build mega cool sports stadiums and worship in a warehouse?

[Ash Wednesday]

Those ornate churches are ornate to glorify God. No single priest or parishioner owns it. It is God's house, probably the only place where the poor can enjoy such a beautiful and opulent environment with wealthy alike. Jesus admonished those that criticized the woman for wasting precious oil on his head. Did the glory of the Lord not fill Solomon's opulent and precious temple that was built for the Lord?

[dUSt]

I think it's important to highlight the point Ash Wednesday made about these beautiful churches belonging to all of Christianity, and not just "the church". It doesn't matter if you are a millionaire or making minimum wage, both people can walk into any of these churches and think of them as their own.

Also, you have to take into account the atmosphere these churches produce. God created us in His image, so he knows us better than we know ourselves--therefore, He knows that we are physical beings influenced by the things of this earth. Our senses are their for a reason, and we should use ALL of them to glorify God. Our hearing, site, taste, feel, and smell. When churches are built like warehouses, void of any beatiful art, incense, etc, we are cheating ourselves out of worshipping God with ALL of our senses.

And finally, I think there's something to say about church's being [b]seperate[/b] from this world. If we are to live the life Christ asks of us, we have to live totally contrary to the way the "world" lives, and our church's should reflect this seperation from the ordinary as well.

[Totus Tuus]

I only have a minute... but the best little argument I have heard for this is:

If God doesn't deserve a gorgeous home, who does?

God bless

[Era Might]

The Lord addressed this question himself in John 12:

[quote]Six days before Passover Jesus came to Bethany, where Lazarus was, whom Jesus had raised from the dead.

They gave a dinner for him there, and Martha served, while Lazarus was one of those reclining at table with him.

Mary took a liter of [b]costly[/b] perfumed oil made from genuine aromatic nard and anointed the feet of Jesus and dried them with her hair; the house was filled with the fragrance of the oil.

Then Judas the Iscariot, one of his disciples, and the one who would betray him, said [b]"Why was this oil not sold for three hundred days' wages and given to the poor[/b]?"

He said this not because he cared about the poor but because he was a thief and held the money bag and used to steal the contributions.

So Jesus said, "[b]Leave her alone. Let her keep this for the day of my burial. You always have the poor with you, but you do not always have me[/b]." [/quote]

Edited November 7, 2005 by Era Might

[Jake Huether]

It's all relative. I just went to a non-Catholic wedding this past weekend, and the very same thought came up in my head.

I had to ask myself:

Why do non-Catholics jab us about our churches, when this church is like 10X as expensive!?


Catholic churches are basically 4 walls and an alter. Very few have great sound systems. Almost none have projectors. No cushy pews. No second levels.

We spend the money on visual stimulation that brings our thoughts to God. Statues,stained glass, etc. Gold is used not because it's expensive, but because it's a preciouse metal. In many ways it symbolizes God, purity brilliance incorruptable etc.

The church I was just in had cushioned pews, an excellent sound system, a second level, tinted windows... It was way more elaborate than any Catholic Church I'd seen...

I'm not saying that's a bad thing. I'm just poiting out the facts. Non-Catholics should take a look at what they have too? They just use the same money differently... it's all relative.

If it's for the Glory of God, who cares?

[Dreamweaver]

I'd also like to add that many of the costly stained glass windows in old cathedrals was a way of depicting stories and people in the Bible to the average person. In the middle ages, Bibles were costly and only a few elite could read them. The common person could look at the stained glass windows and statues and learn about the Passion (for example).

This kind of fits in with the "Chuch belonging to all" thing.

[AfroNova No Limit Soldier]

Dear Phatmass Family,

You all have very good responses, but what are the intellectual arguments?

[scardella]

We're not iconoclasts. That help?

[photosynthesis]

[quote name='Jake Huether' date='Nov 7 2005, 05:32 PM']It's all relative.  I just went to a non-Catholic wedding this past weekend, and the very same thought came up in my head.

I had to ask myself:

Why do non-Catholics jab us about our churches, when this church is like 10X as expensive!?
Catholic churches are basically 4 walls and an alter.  Very few have great sound systems.  Almost none have projectors.  No cushy pews.  No second levels.

We spend the money on visual stimulation that brings our thoughts to God.  Statues,stained glass, etc.  Gold is used not because it's expensive, but because it's a preciouse metal.  In many ways it symbolizes God, purity brilliance incorruptable etc.

The church I was just in had cushioned pews, an excellent sound system, a second level, tinted windows... It was way more elaborate than any Catholic Church I'd seen...

I'm not saying that's a bad thing.  I'm just poiting out the facts.  Non-Catholics should take a look at what they have too?  They just use the same money differently... it's all relative.

If it's for the Glory of God, who cares?
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My friend goes to a 10 million dollar church... it has a gym, a cafeteria, and a great sound system. But it also looks like a flying saucer... not pleasing to the eye at all. People value different things, I guess.

[quote name='AfroNova No Limit Soldier' date='Nov 7 2005, 09:34 PM']Dear Phatmass Family,

You all have very good responses, but what are the intellectual arguments?
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do you want footnotes or something? an annotated bibliography?

In the last 2000 years, the Catholic Church has been the leading patron of the world's best artists and musicians. I think I would ask your friend what he thinks of art... does he think it's important for the good of society?

unfortunately, i think a lot of Catholic Churches have lost their sense of aesthetics... the church I grew up in looked like a flying saucer, and the 1960's hippy hymns were unbearable.

[beatty07]

It just so happens that this very day I was reading JPII's Ecclesia de Eucharistia, which takes up this very question! How fortuitous!

[url="http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/special_features/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_20030417_ecclesia_eucharistia_en.html"]http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/special_...aristia_en.html[/url]

scroll down to #47-49, they are pretty good. #50 has some points that are relevant too. This by no means exhausts the arguments, but it's a nice presentation.

[beatty07]

oh yeah...there's also St. Francis of Assisi. He carries a lot of weight with most people who are that interested in caring for the poor! You'd think if anyone were going to auction off all that stuff, it would be him. But Francis insisted that his friars always use the finest available appointments for the celebration of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. I'm afraid I can't direct you anywhere to verify this...it's just an argument I've heard....anybody know more about it?

[RandomProddy]

[quote name='Totus Tuus' date='Nov 8 2005, 12:19 AM']If God doesn't deserve a gorgeous home, who does?[right][snapback]781814[/snapback][/right]
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Isn't All Existance God's home?

[StMichael]

[quote name='AfroNova No Limit Soldier' date='Nov 7 2005, 09:34 PM']Dear Phatmass Family,

You all have very good responses, but what are the intellectual arguments?
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Permanence.

Gold will last.
Stone will last.

These Churches are built to stand for all time. The items used to celebrate are made to last for all time.

This can not be accomplished by using worldly materials that are not the finest.

If you look to everything that is used during the sacrament of baptisim, the oil represents the indelible mark. Oil can not be simply washed out, it leaves a permanant mark.

So does each every Church, statue, chalice, pew and bell tower.

[dUSt]

[quote name='RandomProddy' date='Nov 8 2005, 09:32 AM']Isn't All Existance God's home?
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Huh?

[AfroNova No Limit Soldier]

That's what I'm talkin' 'bout.
You guys rock.

JMJ

[cmotherofpirl]

The Catholic Church is where heaven and earth meet at every Mass, where the Lord of all Creation dwells in the tabernacle, so we offer to God the best of dwelling we can.
As the psalm 23 says we want to "dwell in the house of the Lord forever".
In psalm 26 O LORD we state" I love the habitation of thy house, and the place where thy glory dwells."
Other groups have meeting houses, the Church has the actual presence of the Lord.
You cannot logically compare the two.



Exodus, chapter 25
"1: The LORD said to Moses,
2: "Speak to the people of Israel, that they take for me an offering; from every man whose heart makes him willing you shall receive the offering for me.
3: And this is the offering which you shall receive from them: gold, silver, and bronze,
4: blue and purple and scarlet stuff and fine twined linen, goats' hair,
5: tanned rams' skins, goatskins, acacia wood,
6: oil for the lamps, spices for the anointing oil and for the fragrant incense,
7: onyx stones, and stones for setting, for the ephod and for the breastpiece.
[u]8: And let them make me a sanctuary, that I may dwell in their midst. [/u]
9: According to all that I show you concerning the pattern of the tabernacle, and of all its furniture, so you shall make it.
10: "They shall make an ark of acacia wood; two cubits and a half shall be its length, a cubit and a half its breadth, and a cubit and a half its height.
11: And you shall overlay it with pure gold, within and without shall you overlay it, and you shall make upon it a molding of gold round about.
12: And you shall cast four rings of gold for it and put them on its four feet, two rings on the one side of it, and two rings on the other side of it.
13: You shall make poles of acacia wood, and overlay them with gold.
14: And you shall put the poles into the rings on the sides of the ark, to carry the ark by them.
15: The poles shall remain in the rings of the ark; they shall not be taken from it.
16: And you shall put into the ark the testimony which I shall give you.
17: Then you shall make a mercy seat of pure gold; two cubits and a half shall be its length, and a cubit and a half its breadth.
18: And you shall make two cherubim of gold; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat.
19: Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece with the mercy seat shall you make the cherubim on its two ends.
20: The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubim be.
21: And you shall put the mercy seat on the top of the ark; and in the ark you shall put the testimony that I shall give you.
22: There I will meet with you, and from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubim that are upon the ark of the testimony, I will speak with you of all that I will give you in commandment for the people of Israel.
23: "And you shall make a table of acacia wood; two cubits shall be its length, a cubit its breadth, and a cubit and a half its height.
24: You shall overlay it with pure gold, and make a molding of gold around it.
25: And you shall make around it a frame a handbreadth wide, and a molding of gold around the frame.
26: And you shall make for it four rings of gold, and fasten the rings to the four corners at its four legs.
27: Close to the frame the rings shall lie, as holders for the poles to carry the table.
28: You shall make the poles of acacia wood, and overlay them with gold, and the table shall be carried with these.
29: And you shall make its plates and dishes for incense, and its flagons and bowls with which to pour libations; of pure gold you shall make them.
[u]30: And you shall set the bread of the Presence on the table before me always. [/u]
"

[Totus Tuus]

[quote name='RandomProddy' date='Nov 8 2005, 09:32 AM']Isn't All Existance God's home?
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* There are walls around the Tabernacle, which is in a very special way God's home.

* Did not God create a beautiful world? Man cannot create roses, mountains, oceans, or wide open land. So basically you proved my point.