PA town turned back on God

[socalscout]

Pat Roberston seems to think so.

[url="http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051110/ts_nm/religion_robertson_dc"]Dover[/url]

[Guest Not Chris Zewe]

Intelligent design...a farçe based on absolutely no scientific evidence. Let's definitely teach it in public school science classes.

[Aloysius]

from the quotes provided it doesn't sound like he's warning of God's wrath, just saying that if they don't want god in the classroom it'd be hypocritical to call on Him for help in a time of crisis. of course, I'm probably just tryin to give him the benefit of the doubt.

"I'd like to say to the good citizens of Dover: if there is a disaster in your area, don't turn to God, you just rejected Him from your city,"

"And don't wonder why He hasn't helped you when problems begin, if they begin.[b] I'm not saying they will[/b], but if they do, just remember, you just voted God out of your city. And if that's the case, don't ask for His help because he might not be there,"

makes sense, when you reject God it'd be hypocritical to expect His help when trouble comes. but of course, not allowing intelligent design in a science classroom doesn't necessarily amount to rejecting God

[Aloysius]

[quote name='Not Chris Zewe' date='Nov 10 2005, 08:11 PM']Intelligent design...a farçe based on absolutely no scientific evidence.  Let's definitely teach it in public school science classes.
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it's based on good philosophy, and often the teachers are teaching bad atheistic philosophy in the classroom that is also unscientific.

the Church invented science, us Catholics know what science is. the philosophy of intelligent design, while good philosophy, is not science. neither is the philosophy of atheism, which is pretty poor philosophy.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Nov 10 2005, 08:18 PM']it's based on good philosophy, and often the teachers are teaching bad atheistic philosophy in the classroom that is also unscientific.

the Church invented science, us Catholics know what science is.  the philosophy of intelligent design, while good philosophy, is not science.  neither is the philosophy of atheism, which is pretty poor philosophy.
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Toss in a smart-alec comment and you sound like Chesterton.

[Guest Not Chris Zewe]

[quote]the Church invented science[/quote]

I stopped taking you seriously there.

[Aloysius]

haha, you seriously need to take a look into history if you don't think science developed directly out of the Christian philosophy. even atheistic sciences would not exist if they had not formed out of the fertile ground of a Christian society. cause Christianity was the first major philosophy to claim the world as completely ordered and explainable.

[socalscout]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Nov 10 2005, 06:16 PM']from the quotes provided it doesn't sound like he's warning of God's wrath, just saying that if they don't want god in the classroom it'd be hypocritical to call on Him for help in a time of crisis.  of course, I'm probably just tryin to give him the benefit of the doubt.

"I'd like to say to the good citizens of Dover: if there is a disaster in your area, don't turn to God, you just rejected Him from your city,"

"And don't wonder why He hasn't helped you when problems begin, if they begin.[b] I'm not saying they will[/b], but if they do, just remember, you just voted God out of your city. And if that's the case, don't ask for His help because he might not be there,"

makes sense, when you reject God it'd be hypocritical to expect His help when trouble comes.  but of course, not allowing intelligent design in a science classroom doesn't necessarily amount to rejecting God
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I was being sarcastic comparing to Sodom and Gomorrah but this quote [quote]And don't wonder why He hasn't helped you when problems begin, if they begin. I'm not saying they will, but if they do, just remember, you just voted God out of your city. And if that's the case, don't ask for His help because he might not be there[/quote]

implies that God turns his back or at least "might" turn his back on the sinner. That contradicts Christ's teaching and the example he led by his ministry. We are all sinners and sin is an act of turning our backs to God but he does not ignore all of mankind ,correct? As sinners, therefore hypocrites, we should not go to God for help, by that logic.

Edited November 11, 2005 by socalscout

[Guest Not Chris Zewe]

You, sir, need to learn something more about other religions, other than that "they're Satan's work" and such. @Aloysius

Edited November 11, 2005 by Not Chris Zewe

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Not Chris Zewe' date='Nov 10 2005, 08:11 PM']Intelligent design...a farçe based on absolutely no scientific evidence.  Let's definitely teach it in public school science classes.
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The fact that intelligent design is true does not require scientific evidence.

You cannot argue that something does not exist simply because you haven't seen it. Negatives cannot stand alone.

Worse still is ignoring the evidence and stating it doesn't exist.

You ask us to provide evidence...something that stands up and smacks you in the head. The problem is that any evidence we can give you is stuff you see every moment of every day...none of it will smack you. You attribute the order of the universe to everything's rising out of chaos, despite your very scientific laws that say everything is moving toward greater chaos.

If your scientific law of entropy is correct (and I believe it is), then your increasingly desperate atheistic bent is a matter of increasing chaos. Makes sense...there's certainly no order to it.

[Aloysius]

nah, I think it really is just making a point that it would be hypocrisy to turn to God in a time of need after rejecting Him. He blesses those who bless Him, rejects those who reject Him, that's Christ's teaching too. but it just sounds like the news wanted a sensationalist headline where the guy was just sayin that to make a point.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Not Chris Zewe' date='Nov 10 2005, 08:24 PM']You, sir, need to learn something more about other religions, other than that "they're Satan's work" and such. @Aloysius
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I've never heard Aloysius say that their Satan's work.

You, sir, need to learn more about Catholic interfaith dialogue. We're not fundies and we don't consider most other religions to be founded by Satan.

[Guest Not Chris Zewe]

[quote]The fact that intelligent design is true does not require scientific evidence.[/quote]

The fact that foolish assumptions (any, really, I just like to use that adjective here because it fits so often) based on blind faith are not facts, so the above statement is invalid.

[quote]You cannot argue that something does not exist simply because you haven't seen it. Negatives cannot stand alone.[/quote]

I'd like to throw that back in your face. So I will. Prove to me that God doesn't not exist.

[quote]You ask us to provide evidence...something that stands up and smacks you in the head. The problem is that any evidence we can give you is stuff you see every moment of every day...none of it will smack you. You attribute the order of the universe to everything's rising out of chaos, despite your very scientific laws that say everything is moving toward greater chaos.[/quote]

What constitutes order, silly? You're basing your belief that everything is in order on your perception of chaos. For all you know, the reality that you perceive could be the most unstable and chaotic thing possible, and it's barely held together at all. You just haven't "seen" true chaos. Doesn't having your own lame arguments used against you smell of elderberries?

[quote]If your scientific law of entropy is correct (and I believe it is), then your increasingly desperate atheistic bent is a matter of increasing chaos. Makes sense...there's certainly no order to it.[/quote]

I could put a solipsist-ish rant here, but what I said above takes care of your argument again quite well.

[Aloysius]

[quote name='Not Chris Zewe' date='Nov 10 2005, 08:24 PM']You, sir, need to learn something more about other religions, other than that "they're Satan's work" and such. @Aloysius
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do research into pre-Christian religions. most people tend to view those through a western Christian ethnocentric lense.

before Christianity, there were the mythologies, the stories, and the philosophies- the things that claimed truth. mythologies were never quite concerned with whether or not they were believed as actually true, they were simply stories. Christianity was the first to have a myth, a story, which they claimed as TRUE (so much so that they'd go to their deaths defending the truth of their stories)

I know a lot about other religions, and generally before Christianity you're not going to find a religion that considers itself a beleif-system. It wasn't concerned with belief or unbelief, we impose that on other religions by our ethnocentric study of them.

especially the eastern religions tended to view the world as chaotic, but so did most pre-christian pagan religions throughout the world. that is why science as a systematic developing field of study did not develope anywhere else. sure there were individual studies of different topics, but the systematic study of a presumedly ordered universe did not occur outside of the Christian tradition.

[socalscout]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Nov 10 2005, 06:27 PM']nah, I think it really is just making a point that it would be hypocrisy to turn to God in a time of need after rejecting Him.  He blesses those who bless Him, rejects those who reject Him, that's Christ's teaching too.  but it just sounds like the news wanted a sensationalist headline where the guy was just sayin that to make a point.
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I don't agree with the point. If we sin are we to expect God to abandon us?

I do agree with you on the media though and I can understand his frustration but I think he misses the point.

Edited November 11, 2005 by socalscout

[Guest Not Chris Zewe]

[quote name='Raphael' date='Nov 10 2005, 07:31 PM']I've never heard Aloysius say that their Satan's work.

You, sir, need to learn more about Catholic interfaith dialogue.  We're not fundies and we don't consider most other religions to be founded by Satan.
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To begin with, I never said that he had said that. It was implied that those are his thoughts. And when your clergy are bothered enough, they tend to give in and admit that their beliefs (in terms of other religions) are as I said they were.

[Aloysius]

intelligent design is sound philosophy... that there is an unmoved mover at the beginning of creation, that there is a force that keeps things in existence that seems to be intelligent. it is not science (in the modern usage of the word), it is philosophy (a higher form of study anyway)

[avemaria40]

Thank you Raphael! It's so annoying to hear what Catholics supposedly think from non-Catholics. We don't think other religions are Satan's work and it's a very ignorant thing to say. yes, we believe other religions are founded by men, while the Jewish and Christian religions were revealed to us by God (as Christianity comes from Judaism), but we in no way believe that other religions were created by the devil I hate it when ppl criticize Catholicism, and then give so called "facts" that aren't even true!

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Not Chris Zewe' date='Nov 10 2005, 08:33 PM']To begin with, I never said that he had said that.  It was implied that those are his thoughts.  And when your clergy are bothered enough, they tend to give in and admit that their beliefs (in terms of other religions) are as I said they were.
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You mean when you harass them enough that they say something that you can contort into such a heresy as that with relative ease?

[socalscout]

[quote name='avemaria40' date='Nov 10 2005, 06:36 PM'] We don't think other religions are Satan's work ...
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Well yes we do if the title of the religion is "The first church of Satan's Work" then that [i]might[/i] tip us off. :