jezic Posted November 22, 2005 Posted November 22, 2005 [quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Nov 21 2005, 05:40 PM']ohh i know that. the bible is not for individual interpritation, but only of the church. i still prefer to go to the Tridentine Mass, but i can't go every sunday because my parents to don't like and i can't drive yet so.... but i go to a number of parishes becasue i haven't found one that is really orthodox. i wanted to share this poem with all of you it was written by J.RR Tolkein All that is gold does not glitter, Not all those who wander are lost; The old that is strong does not wither, Deep roots are not reached by the frost. From the ashes a fire shall be woken, A light from the shadows shall spring; Renewed shall be blade that was broken, The crownless again shall be king. [right][snapback]797026[/snapback][/right] [/quote] That is one of the bets poems ever. and it is so true as well. Now if only we can figure out what it really means. It is good to hear though. There is greater rejoicing in Heaven over one who is lost that comes home ....
Aloysius Posted November 22, 2005 Posted November 22, 2005 [quote name='Dave' date='Nov 21 2005, 07:16 PM']Dust!!! Sam needs his "Phishy" status changed to either "Phatmasser" or "Church Faithful"! [right][snapback]797059[/snapback][/right] [/quote] remember how long it took to get pspx's phishy label off? dUSt doesn't just re-label based on one post that says they changed their mind... it'll take time.
photosynthesis Posted November 22, 2005 Posted November 22, 2005 EENS... do you still believe in Extra Ecclessiam Nulla Salus?
Myles Domini Posted November 22, 2005 Posted November 22, 2005 [quote]EENS... do you still believe in Extra Ecclessiam Nulla Salus?[/quote] Who doesn't?
photosynthesis Posted November 22, 2005 Posted November 22, 2005 [quote name='Myles' date='Nov 22 2005, 06:44 PM']Who doesn't? [right][snapback]798087[/snapback][/right] [/quote] well, as I understand it (and i never got great catechesis so this is me trying to learn on my own) doesn't the Church teach that while being Catholic is the surest way of getting to heaven, it is possible for non-Catholics to go to heaven too (because they will see God face to face and have a final oppurtunity to repent)? i'm not sure if this is right though
JP2Iloveyou Posted November 22, 2005 Posted November 22, 2005 That's not really correct. The Church teaches that if a person, Catholic or not, goes to Heaven, it is by Christ, through the Church. Christ died to save all men, not just Christians, not just Catholics. However, if some guy from a remote tribe in Africa who has never heard of Christ and has never heard of the Church goes to Heaven, it is still by the redemptive act of Christ and through the Catholic Church. Thus, it is accurate to say that everyone in Heaven is Catholic. It is also accurate to say that everyone in Hell is Catholic. That is because when you die, you understand the truth in a way unavailable to you on Earth. If a person lives in accord with the moral law inscribed on his heart as best he knows it, that person can go to Heaven; if he does, however, it is only by Christ, through the Church. So, it's not really accurate to say that a person gets a second chance to repent upon seeing Christ.
photosynthesis Posted November 23, 2005 Posted November 23, 2005 [quote name='JP2Iloveyou' date='Nov 22 2005, 06:59 PM']That's not really correct. The Church teaches that if a person, Catholic or not, goes to Heaven, it is by Christ, through the Church. Christ died to save all men, not just Christians, not just Catholics. However, if some guy from a remote tribe in Africa who has never heard of Christ and has never heard of the Church goes to Heaven, it is still by the redemptive act of Christ and through the Catholic Church. Thus, it is accurate to say that everyone in Heaven is Catholic. It is also accurate to say that everyone in Hell is Catholic. That is because when you die, you understand the truth in a way unavailable to you on Earth. If a person lives in accord with the moral law inscribed on his heart as best he knows it, that person can go to Heaven; if he does, however, it is only by Christ, through the Church. So, it's not really accurate to say that a person gets a second chance to repent upon seeing Christ. [right][snapback]798101[/snapback][/right] [/quote] i agree with what you said.. now that I think about it, the 2nd chance thing sounds kind of iffy... but there is always purgatory
Socrates Posted November 23, 2005 Posted November 23, 2005 Amen brother! You're a good guy, Sam. God bless you!
JP2Iloveyou Posted November 23, 2005 Posted November 23, 2005 [quote name='photosynthesis' date='Nov 22 2005, 07:52 PM']i agree with what you said.. now that I think about it, the 2nd chance thing sounds kind of iffy... but there is always purgatory [right][snapback]798136[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Purgatory is not a second chance either. Everyone who makes it to Purgatory, makes it to Heaven. It's not like a Get Out of Jail Free Card. The idea is that we are cleansed of the temporal punishment due to our sins committed while on Earth before being admitted into the Divine Presence of God Almighty.
photosynthesis Posted November 23, 2005 Posted November 23, 2005 [quote name='JP2Iloveyou' date='Nov 22 2005, 08:32 PM']Purgatory is not a second chance either. Everyone who makes it to Purgatory, makes it to Heaven. It's not like a Get Out of Jail Free Card. The idea is that we are cleansed of the temporal punishment due to our sins committed while on Earth before being admitted into the Divine Presence of God Almighty. [right][snapback]798153[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I know that.
Extra ecclesiam nulla salus Posted November 23, 2005 Author Posted November 23, 2005 [quote name='Socrates' date='Nov 22 2005, 08:00 PM']Amen brother! You're a good guy, Sam. God bless you! [right][snapback]798139[/snapback][/right] [/quote] thanks it means a lot. Yes I believe in EENS (it is defined Dogma). of course i do not have a feeynistic view. I believe in Baptism by desire and baptism of blood as well as regular ol' water baptism. also i believe that it is very possibile for non-catholics to be saved, and it is not my place to say wether or not someone is going to Hell (because it is up to God and not me).
Paphnutius Posted November 23, 2005 Posted November 23, 2005 [quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Nov 22 2005, 10:02 PM']thanks it means a lot. Yes I believe in EENS (it is defined Dogma). of course i do not have a feeynistic view. I believe in Baptism by desire and baptism of blood as well as regular ol' water baptism. also i believe that it is very possibile for non-catholics to be saved, and it is not my place to say wether or not someone is going to Hell (because it is up to God and not me). [right][snapback]798192[/snapback][/right] [/quote] There you go EENS. Extra ecclesiam nulla salus is indeed true, but as he said, it deals with Baptism. One who dies without knowledge of Christ, but has lived a good, moral life and sought the Truth could be said to have implicitly desired Baptism had he known about it. Therefore, he may be counted "in the Church" by implicit desire.
photosynthesis Posted November 23, 2005 Posted November 23, 2005 [quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Nov 22 2005, 10:02 PM']thanks it means a lot. Yes I believe in EENS (it is defined Dogma). of course i do not have a feeynistic view. I believe in Baptism by desire and baptism of blood as well as regular ol' water baptism. also i believe that it is very possibile for non-catholics to be saved, and it is not my place to say wether or not someone is going to Hell (because it is up to God and not me). [right][snapback]798192[/snapback][/right] [/quote] coolness!
beatty07 Posted November 23, 2005 Posted November 23, 2005 Well this is great news! Eens, stories like this are so awesome, they remind all of us to keep on converting! BTW, regarding the extra ecclesiam, maybe everybody already knows this but the go-to document for a current teaching formulation is definitely Lumen Gentium paragraph 16...that's a good one to know. [url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html"]http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_council...gentium_en.html[/url] For a more exhaustive look, if anyone's really really interested, Frances Sullivan's book "Salvation Outside the Church" is quite thorough. I don't think it's still in print but you could track one down.
Era Might Posted November 23, 2005 Posted November 23, 2005 Don't forget the very important CDF declaration "Dominus Iesus", released by then-Cardinal Ratzinger. [url="http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html"]http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congrega...s-iesus_en.html[/url]
Extra ecclesiam nulla salus Posted January 28, 2006 Author Posted January 28, 2006 Im not a Trad.......again. I hope my staying in the church is forever this time! sam
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