Refute?

[Nathan]

I'm having a bit of a debate on another forum regarding Christians voting Republican. My friend thinks that the Republican Party, aside from a few moral issues like abortion, euthanasia, and gay marriage, do not really represent the beliefs of Christians (he is using war and the lack of social programs for the poor and the environment as his basis). I, however, am telling him that moral issues like abortion, euthanasia, and gay marriage are of upmost importance to Christian people when voting -- that they trump issues like the war in Iraq, which may or may not be justified.

Here's his latest post:

"That's dumbing it down quite a bit though. It isn't just the war, there is more to it. Not only does murder exist in war (something I thought was never justified according to the Bible) but it also ruins the lives of the survivors. There are things like torture going on in Iraq, stealing, probably rape and countless other things that go against the teachings of the Bible. Furthermore, the taxpayers' money that is going to buy these weapons used to murder people, both innocent and guilty alike, and destroy the homes and livelehood of countless others can be used for good: whether that be programs to encourage kids not to have promiscuous sex and to think of adoption as an option as opposed to abortion, or to help feed and cloth the thousands of less fortunate people who are starving and potentially freezing to death during the winter... I just think that it is a cop-out to say that abortion and euthanasia is murder but then give a thumbs-up to drop bombs over baghdad. Seriously, not only are you killing people but you are sending young men and women."

How would YOU respond to this as a post?

Thanks.

[Paphnutius]

Well to begin with, he is blurring the lines between murder and killing in war. It is not murder for one soldier to kill the enemy in a battle.

Murder is the taking of an innocent life.
A JUST war (see your CCC for the just war theory) is something completely different. Aside from that, even though the nation may be wrong for going to war, a soldier that is commanded to fight does not share that blame. He only has culpability for immoral acts done in the battle, and killing under "normal" circumstances in war is not one of them.

Have you brought up the social harm done by abortion, etc...? It is to my understanding that the Iraqi war was not condoned by the Vatican, so there is no point in trying to defend this one. If I am mistaken here, please someone point that out.

Edited November 26, 2005 by Paphnutius

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='Nathan' date='Nov 25 2005, 09:56 PM']I'm having a bit of a debate on another forum regarding Christians voting Republican. My friend thinks that the Republican Party, aside from a few moral issues like abortion, euthanasia, and gay marriage, do not really represent the beliefs of Christians (he is using war and the lack of social programs for the poor and the environment as his basis). I, however, am telling him that moral issues like abortion, euthanasia, and gay marriage are of upmost importance to Christian people when voting -- that they trump issues like the war in Iraq, which may or may not be justified.[/quote]
well, the republican party, at the very least, seems to be less hostile to the christian "non-negotiables", whereas just war and social doctrine are all debatable issues among christians.


[quote]"That's dumbing it down quite a bit though. It isn't just the war, there is more to it. Not only does murder exist in war (something I thought was never justified according to the Bible)....[/quote]
well, there's his first error. murder certainly can justifiable, for example w/in the context of just wars and in self-defense (individual or societal). see the CCC, 2263-2267 and 2308-2310 ([url="http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a5.htm#I"][b]here[/b][/url]).


[quote].....but it also ruins the lives of the survivors.[/quote]
surely war doesn't ruin the lives of the survivors in every instance. this statement assumes that war will always be unjust and destructive to innocent life, and that is not true. if war frees the survivors from an unjust aggressor than it would in fact enrich their lives.


[quote]There are things like torture going on in Iraq, stealing, probably rape and countless other things that go against the teachings of the Bible.[/quote]
who said the republican party approved of such things? he's assuming they do, but i doubt he can prove it. also, can he prove that stealing and rape is going on?


[quote]Furthermore, the taxpayers' money that is going to buy these weapons used to murder people, both innocent and guilty alike, and destroy the homes and livelehood of countless others can be used for good:[/quote]
well, as i said before, the death of the guilty is not always unjust. also, he's begging the question by assuming in advance that taxpayers' money is not being used for good, when he has yet to prove this.


[quote]whether that be programs to encourage kids not to have promiscuous sex and to think of adoption as an option as opposed to abortion, or to help feed and cloth the thousands of less fortunate people who are starving and potentially freezing to death during the winter...[/quote]
who said the republican party is against such efforts, or that the Bush administration has not spent money on these things. also, the record of the two parties shows that it is in fact that liberal agenda that is much more hostile to programs that promote abstinence over the use of condoms, and more accepting of programs like planned parenthood which promote contraception and abortion. assuming your opponent is a democrat, he is being severely hypocritical here.

also, as i said before, the particular approach that a party uses to address the needs of the poor is up for debate. there is no ONE right way. but, issues like abortion, euthanasia, and gay marriage are simply non-negotiable. can he prove that it is in fact the democratic party that is less-hostile to christian beliefs on these issues? that i'd like to see....


[quote]I just think that it is a cop-out to say that abortion and euthanasia is murder but then give a thumbs-up to drop bombs over baghdad. Seriously, not only are you killing people but you are sending young men and women."[/quote]
well, he obviously has no conception of just war and legitimate defense. here are some articles that may help:

Capital Punishment
[url="http://www.phatmass.com/directory/index.php/cat_id/435"]http://www.phatmass.com/directory/index.php/cat_id/435[/url]

Just War Doctrine
[url="http://www.phatmass.com/directory/index.php/cat_id/436"]http://www.phatmass.com/directory/index.php/cat_id/436[/url]

Catholics and Social / Political Issues
[url="http://www.phatmass.com/directory/index.php/cat_id/403"]http://www.phatmass.com/directory/index.php/cat_id/403[/url]


pax christi,
phatcatholic

[argent_paladin]

The Democratic party platform contains no reference against all war. Nor dd any major candidate (other than Kucinich) come out as a pacifist. Further, one can be for war under certain circumstances but against the atrocities that often accompany it.

Also, the argument that there is murder and rape in war, therefore war is wrong, could just as easily apply to peace. There is murder and rape during peacetime, therefore peace is immoral.

Again, it is a part of the Democratic party platform that certain human beings do not have a right to life. Republicans do not directly have anything like that in their platforms (such as the poor should stay poor, war is good, etc). Also, abortion is clearly immoral, lowering taxes on the rich is not necessarily immoral, considering the other effects it has on the economy. These other issues are prudential issues, not absolutes like the prohibition against directly intentionally taking innocent human life.
The final bit of evidence that I offer is that there is a clear correlation between going to church and voting Republican. The more often you attend mass, the more likely you will vote Republican. 90% of all atheists vote Democrat (or other leftist group). The charge against prayer in schools, Under God, 10 commandments, etc etc are lead by Democrats. If the Dems don't want to seem so anti-Christian, they should stop being anti-Christian.