salvation

[photosynthesis]

[quote name='jesussaves' date='Nov 30 2005, 10:28 PM']I will engage with the authority issue and am open to clarification on the true Catholic stance.
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isn't that not really what the thread is about?

[rkwright]

whats interesting is that as long as he believes that he has the authority to teach on the Bible through his interpretation, then doesn't that mean we all do? And if we all have the authority we can basically all say what we want and no one be wrong since we all have authority.

yay for the one Holy Church and one orthodox teaching.

[morostheos]

[quote name='jesussaves' date='Nov 30 2005, 11:28 PM']No. But that does not mean God cannot declare you legally clean, for His love can do anything.
[/quote]

I have a question. If God's love can do anything, why would He only declare you legally clean instead of making you clean for real?

This is my understanding of your belief on this matter and ours.

You. We are covered in dung. Jesus comes and covers up our dung and "hides" it from the Father when we profess faith in Him. By living Christian lives we remove the dung from ourselves.

Us. We are covered in dung (at least we both agree on the starting point!). Through Christ's grace, we are given the capability of faith in Him. When we profess this faith and recieve Christ's grace (through Baptism, and the other Sacraments), Jesus comes and takes the dung off of us and puts it on Himself.


As Catholics we believe that we cannot remove the dung from ourselves, but through Christ's grace He removes it. You seem to believe you can remove the dung by "living a Christian life." To me, it seems like you think you can become a better person through your works, while we believe we can become a better person through Christ's grace. How does that work?

[N/A Gone]

[quote name='rkwright' date='Dec 1 2005, 02:01 AM']whats interesting is that as long as he believes that he has the authority to teach on the Bible through his interpretation, then doesn't that mean we all do?  And if we all have the authority we can basically all say what we want and no one be wrong since we all have authority. 

yay for the one Holy Church and one orthodox teaching.
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that was my point..

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='jesussaves' date='Nov 30 2005, 07:21 PM']I do not want to argue the points that you are.

Two issues going on here:
defining the official stances
debating who is right

Brother Adam exemplifies what is occuing overall in this thread.There are a few who want to say we are not different, I'll ignore that minority.  He is not showing me how I have misinterpreted the Catholic Church. If that were the case, I'd be stating why it is I think what I do and listening to you for correction. But you are not correcting me, you are stating why it is you think your position is right. I did not come here to debate this; I know the arguments. I came to enlighten and be enlightened on your gospel and mine, in case no one knew it; that has been done, and now we're moving into a territory I do not wish to debate. So, I am not running from the argument that has been started. I am running from the argument you want to start, but not because I do not think I am right, but because nothing will be accomplished. If you wish to show me how I have errored in my understanding of the Catholic Church, by all means.
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I have shown you how you erred. I directly quoted your 'arguments' (as non-existant as they are) and corrected the heresy and false gospel that you have been taught (see I can throw around accusations as well, which seems to be the whole point you are here). I'm not exactly sure why you are here, because you aren't here to learn, nor are you here to engage in dialogue as you have rejected our attempts at both. If you are here to throw around the same old fundie lies that all of us are well acquainted with, you aren't going to get far. If you have a specific issue you want to take up, then out with it! We've responded to your lies (misunderstandings) with the Truth and you don't seem to like it.

[Gal. 5:22,23]

Jesus Saves,

How can you be certain that your interpretation of Scripture is the correct one? If the Holy Spirit has truly given all Christians the gift of interpreting Scripture then wouldn't we all agree?

And what did Christians do before the New Testament was put together (late in the 4th century)?

Questions like these led me to begin reading the Early Church Fathers because these men lived closest to the time of Christ and I wanted to know what they taught.

From Wikipedia:

Church Fathers

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

The Church Fathers or Fathers of the Church are the early and influential theologians and writers in the Christian Church, particularly those of the first five centuries of Christian history. The term means specifically writers and teachers of the Church, not saints in general; usually it is not meant to include the New Testament authors, but some of their texts were considered to enter the biblical canon.

Those fathers who wrote in Latin are called the Latin (Church) Fathers, and those who wrote in Greek the Greek (Church) Fathers.

The very earliest Church Fathers, of the first two generations after the Apostles of Christ, are usually called the Apostolic Fathers. Famous Apostolic Fathers are St. Clement of Rome, the author of the Didache and the Shepherd of Hermas. Later, in contact with Greek Philosophy and Literature and facing persecutions, began a period called the Apologetic Fathers who tried to justify and defend the Christian doctrine against attacks from within the Hellenistic world, important Fathers of this era are St. Justin Martyr, Tatian, Athenagoras, Hermias and Tertullian. Fathers prior to Nicene Christianity are collected in Ante-Nicene Fathers, those after are in Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers.

Famous Latin Fathers include the Montanist Tertullian, St. Augustine of Hippo, St. Ambrose of Milan, and St. Jerome, the translator of the Vulgate; famous Greek Fathers include St. Irenaeus of Lyons (whose work has survived only in Latin translation), Clement of Alexandria, the heterodox Origen, St. Athanasius of Alexandria, St. John Chrysostom, and the Three Cappadocian Fathers. However there are many more.



So, according to you, the Catholic Church got it wrong right from the beginning and Jesus needed the reformers to come along and correct 1500 years of teaching? Would Jesus really leave His children like that?

This passage really spoke to me during my reading yesterday. "I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought. My brothers, some from Chloe's household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. What I mean is this: One of you says, 'I follow Paul' ; another, 'I follow Apollos' ; another, 'I follow Cephas' ; still another, 'I follow Christ.' Is Christ divided?"

Jesus meant for us to be visibly one. You can't possibly suggest that Protestants are united in mind and thought, can you?

[rkwright]

[quote name='Gal. 5:22' date='23,Dec 1 2005, 11:56 AM']This passage really spoke to me during my reading yesterday. "I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought. My brothers, some from Chloe's household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. What I mean is this: One of you says, 'I follow Paul' ; another, 'I follow Apollos' ; another, 'I follow Cephas' ; still another, 'I follow Christ.' Is Christ divided?"

Jesus meant for us to be visibly one. You can't possibly suggest that Protestants are united in mind and thought, can you?
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it is interesting to see that the groups that split off from the RC church, so often they claim to be the true Church but yet they themselves end up splitting and never having a real sense of unity. Look at the protestants like you said, not united in mind and thought. Even the Orthodox have a tendency to not be united. I was listening to a Greek priest and a Russian priest explaining why they weren't in full communion over different issues. It seems that while the RC is united in mind and thought, as Jesus promised, when groups split off from it they end up very fragmented.

[Brother Adam]

It seems jesussaves couldn't handle the truth...

[jesussaves]

[quote]If you are here to throw around the same old fundie lies that all of us are well acquainted with, you aren't going to get far. If you have a specific issue you want to take up, then out with it! We've responded to your lies (misunderstandings) with the Truth and you don't seem to like it.[/quote]

The only thing I don't like is arguing back and forth that our stances are correct just because. The specific issue I wanted to take up was to point out the true gosple here to those who have not heard. For those who have heard the new gosple spelled out better, praise God. You stated your case; that's fine. I know your position, so debating the issue is pointless.

I do not mind arguing authority or early church, as these are new issues. I believe the bible indicates each person has the ability to grow in understanding. You may argue the bible indicates to grow in the Catholic Church. The only way we will get past the bible is to look at early church.

The early church also has less guarantee that what's being said is truth, more worldly understandings grew as we move away from the time of Christ. Regardless, I don't think the evidence you have is sufficient. I am simply stating that you will have more as time progresses.

I would argue that the papacy is non-existant. You will surely point to evidence in favour of your position. But the evidence to me will only point out that Rome had high honor. If your position for the pope were so strong, you'd have better evidence.

Not to mention all the information that we no longer posses, for as the Roman church's stance became prominant (I would argue due to its worldly ways), they destroyed much of the dissenting evidence.

Regardless, you will still find just as much heterogeny as today.



I am saddened because your "logical" interpretation in the early church causes you to put your trust in Rome to interpret the bible for you; this is why you are misguided. You could also "logically" decide otherwise.

I suppose we should argue the details; this way I can show you the error of your assumptions. Honestly, in a worldly sense one cannot decide what to make of the early evidence and the bible definitely. Ultimately, one must make the judgement based on the Holy Spirit. If you believe the Holy Spirit leads you in the Catholicism, I ask you to second guess your notion and pray hard,

[jesussaves]

Clement of Rome: "We also, being called through God's will in Christ Jesus, are not justified through ourselves, neither through our own wisdom or understanding, or piety, or works which we have done in holiness or heart, but through faith" (Epistle to Corinthians).

Polycarp: "I know that through grace you are saved, not of works, but by the will of God, through Jesus Christ (Epistle of Philippians).

Cyprian: "If Abraham believed in God and it was imputed to him for righteousness, then each one, who believes in God and lives by faith, is found to be a righteous person."

Athanasius: "Not by these (i.e. human efforts) but by faith, a man is justified as was Abraham."

Basil: "This is the true and perfect glorying in God, when a man is not lifted up on account of his own righteousness, but has known himself to be wanting in true righteousness and to be justified by faith alone in Christ."

Origen: "Through faith, without the works of the law, the dying thief was justified, because...the Lord inquired not what he had previously wrought, nor yet waited for his performance of some work after he should have believe; but...he took him unto himself for a companion, justified through his confession alone."

Jerome: "When an ungodly man is converted, God justified him through faith alone, not on account of good works which he possessed not."

Augustine: "Grace is give to you, not wages paid to you...it is called grace because it is given gratuitously. By no precedent merits did you buy what you have received. The sinner therefore received this grace first, that his sins should be forgiven him...good works follow after a justified person; they do not go before in order that he may be justified...good works, following after justification, show what a man has received."

Anselm: "Do you believe that you cannot be saved but by the death of Christ? Go, then, and ...put all your confidence in this death alone. If God shall say to you, "You are a sinner", say to him, "I place the death of our Lord Jesus Christ between me and my sin.""

Bernard of Clairvaux: "Shall not all our righteousness turn out to be mere unrighteousness and deficiency? What, then, shall it be concerning our sins, when not even our righteousness can answer for itself? Wherefore...let us flee, with all humility to Mercy which alone can save our souls...whoever hungers and thirsts after righteousness, let him believe in thee, who "justified the ungodly"; and thus, being justified by faith alone, he shall have peace with God."


I know the arguments you will make. I realize you will surely find some worldly thinkers, who advocated works. More disheartining, you will say as per Anselm, "it depends on what you mean by "alone"". For Augustine, "well, justification is a process, and he was only talking about the inital phase". To name a few. These are all cop outs in order to retain your position. Perhaps you will throw doubt on a few with more context for a few so that we cannot know what they meant.

What we can know is that there was heterogeny. For this reason, one must interpret the gosple with the Holy Spirit.

Edited December 3, 2005 by jesussaves

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='jesussaves' date='Dec 2 2005, 10:12 PM']I know the arguments you will make. I realize you will surely find some worldly thinkers, who advocated works. More disheartining, you will say as per Anselm, "it depends on what you mean by "alone"". For Augustine, "well, justification is a process, and he was only talking about the inital phase". To name a few. These are all cop outs in order to retain your position.
[/quote]
Thank you for those wonderul quotes. It is nice to hear our own tradition given back to us. I do have a question for you, though: Have you heard anyone on this board say that we are justified by our works? Has anyone said that we are saved by works? That our works are what merit us salvation?

Also the argument you give for Rome destroying evidence appears to be an argument from silence and that is one of the weakest kind.

I would like to refer to an earlier question I had for you: Is genuine faith always accompanied by works?

[jesussaves]

[quote]I would like to refer to an earlier question I had for you: Is genuine faith always accompanied by works? [/quote]

Both your position and mine have works. The works are necessary in my position, out of gratitude, but they do not justify. I know doing good out of graditude only for that purpose is hard to comprehend in human terms. Just because they are necessary does not mean they justify, The faith that saves is the faith that is in Christ ALONE. Your position includes the works as necessary to be saved. Perhaps you will say yours is out of gratitude, but you still insist the gratitude or whathave you adds to Christ.

The new points are coming to a close if nothing new can be shown. We have to agree to disagree with the positions, and we must rest on the Holy Spirit to interpret. I am saddened because you think the Roman Church interprets for you and you cannot escape that. But remember, you interpret things to choose to submit. You are in control. Give yourself the the Spirit.

Edited December 3, 2005 by jesussaves

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='jesussaves' date='Dec 2 2005, 10:44 PM']Both your position and mine have works. 

[/quote]
Why did I hope for a simple yes or no answer?

[quote]The works are necessary in my position, out of gratitude, but they do not justify.[/quote]You dodged one of my questions which I will now ask again: Has anyone here said that our works justify us? Has anyone said that our works merit us salvation?

[quote]I know doing good out of graditude only for that purpose is hard to comprehend in human terms. [/quote]Not really. A husband and wife have this same type of love and gratitude. We like to call it Charity here. Caritas in the Latin if you like.

[quote]Just because they are necessary does not mean they justify,  The faith that saves is the faith that is in Christ ALONE. Your position includes the works as necessary to be saved.
[/quote] You just contradicted yourself here bud. You said "just because they are necessary"....then you say that are "not necessary" Which is it?

[quote]Give yourself the the Spirit.
[/quote]Umm I do not "give" myself anything, but rely on what is given [b]to [/b][b]me [/b]by God.

So to sum up your point: Yes genuine faith is always accompanied by wroks right? So if one does not have works does one have genuine faith?

Edited December 3, 2005 by Paphnutius

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='jesussaves' date='Dec 2 2005, 10:44 PM'] Perhaps you will say yours is out of gratitude, but you still insist the gratitude or whathave you adds to Christ.[/quote]
Woah....wait there bud....show me where we have said this. In fact you just quoted a lot of Catholics who said that it doesn't....which is it?

[Paphnutius]

Just in case you are wondering: from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

1996 Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life. [Cf. Jn 1:12-18 ; Jn 17:3 ; Rom 8:14-17 ; 2Pet 1:3-4.]

1997 Grace is a participation in the life of God. It introduces us into the intimacy of Trinitarian life: by Baptism the Christian participates in the grace of Christ, the Head of his Body. As an "adopted son" he can henceforth call God "Father," in union with the only Son. He receives the life of the Spirit who breathes charity into him and who forms the Church.

[Gal. 5:22,23]

[quote name='jesussaves' date='Dec 2 2005, 10:12 PM']

For this reason, one must interpret the gosple with the Holy Spirit.
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And again I ask, who is the Holy Spirit enabling to interpret Scripture? Here are a few possible answers. And He must only be helping one of these groups because NONE of them agree.


Lutherans- Luther
Church of Christ-Christian Church
Anabaptists- Zwingli
Reformed: United, Presbyterian...
Mormons
Calvinists- Calvin
Adventists
Church of England-Henry VIII
Salvation Army
Jehovah's Witnesses...
Presbyterians
Evangelicalism, Fundamentalism
Puritans
Pentecostals
Congregationalists
Charismatic Renewal
Episcopalians
Baptists
Quakers. Society of Friends
Shakers
Moravians
Methodists

Edited December 3, 2005 by Gal. 5:22,23

[Paphnutius]

[quote]He is not showing me how I have misinterpreted the Catholic Church. If that were the case, I'd be stating why it is I think what I do and listening to you for correction. But you are not correcting me, you are stating why it is you think your position is right. I did not come here to debate this; I know the arguments. I came to enlighten and be enlightened on your gospel and mine, [/quote]

Here is how you understand our position:[quote]Your position includes the works as necessary to be saved. Perhaps you will say yours is out of gratitude, [b]but you still insist the gratitude or whathave you adds to Christ.[/b][/quote]That bolded part is where you misunderstand our position. Understand? I am pointing out where you do not understand our position. When I asked you to point out where we have said this, you were not able to present anything. You say that we beleive our acts add something to the grace of Christ, yet you are unable to show where we believe this. I think that would constitute as a misunderstanding. Understand?

Catholics do not, I repeat [b]do not [/b] believe that our works add to Christ's action, merit for us salvation, or justify us. Got that? If you can prove differently (that we state our works save us) go for it, but I think that you will be dissapointed.

Let us take a look at what you say. I have asked you repeatedly if genuine faith is always accompanied by works. You try some fancy foot work to clarify your position before presenting it, but you ultimately answer Yes. I quote you in reference to works and faith:[quote]Man is justified by faith alone, but faith is never alone[/quote]You are quoting Luther there in response to James. So genuine faith is always accompanied by works.

So I then ask you: "If one does not have works does one have genuine faith?" I can imagine you will try to dodge this, so I will do my best to understand your position. You would more than likely say, "No." If one does not have works one must not have genuine faith. Now, let us put this all together shall we?

Jusitification is by faith.
Faith is always accompanied by works.
Without works faith is dead (James2:ff...) It is not genuine.
So if faith is dependent on works, would justification not also be?

Notice, we are NOT saying that we we are justified by our works. I have quoted you the Catechism of the Catholic Church that shows the Catholic position is that we are justifed only by the grace of God. Our works do not win or earn for us salvation, but without works we cannot be justified since they are so bound up with living faith as you said:[quote] Profession of faith is not enough. Mere mental assent to the Gospel truths is not enough. One must have living faith, and that is manifest by good works.[/quote]You are a bit more Catholic than you would like to admit my friend. We believe that only Christ can and has won for us salvation. We must obey and follow Him as He has repeatedly said:[quote]7:21. Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.
[/quote] So we must do the will of the Father. That does not mean that by doing the will of the Father we earn salvation, but that we are to do it if we wish to be saved. Your rhetoric is at its end; it is time to discuss the points. I have shown you here in simple terms where you have misunderstood our position.

I recommend, my brother, that you re-read the Gospel (there is only one! There is no your gospel and our gospel. Please quit that, it is annoying) and pray hard on them.

Go with the peace of Christ.

Edited December 3, 2005 by Paphnutius

[jesussaves]

Thank you for your engaging posts Pap. I have a few comments and questions. I had not been intending to dodge your questions regarding works in the Catholic Church, per se. I didn't respond to you because I have expressed many times that the works in the Catholic Church are through grace, and to respond to you is one out of so many people who I thought just didn't get it; it would be impractical to respond to all of these people; and it was nothing new to add. But you frame the situation differently. I would like to address it now.

This is the heresy that the Catholic Church says is wrong the way I understand it teaches. Works that are from yourself without the grace of God do not count. Works by the unmerited grace of God count. Note this is how I have been expressing it, although not explicitly in every thread I have posted. I often say that works are necessary to the Catholic Church, because in the final count, past all the fancy footwork on your part, you say works are necessary. (though about with grace) Ultimately, the final judgement by God is grace alone in the Cat Church, true, but this is still based on your faith and graced works. Our gosple grace in the final measure comes from faith alone. Let us be clear what our grace is based on; it must be based on something, lest everyone be saved.

You say I am more Catholic than I realize. You say this because I feel works are in a sense necessary. If we are so similar, do you agree with Luther then when he says we are justified by faith alone, but faith is never alone? Apparently you agree with him, since you say the Catholic Church teaches that works are not part of the equation.

Also, apparently all those fathers who say we are justified by faith alone you agree with?
Here is Trent:
Canon 12. If anyone says that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in divine mercy, which remits sins for Christ's sake, or that it is this confidence alone that justifies us, let him be anathema.
Am I misinterpreting Trent in this canon? Are they saying that a faith alone that has no works is wrong, but they are not saying a faith alone that has works is what justifies?

Edited December 3, 2005 by jesussaves

[jesussaves]

Here is a distinguishing point. In the Catholic Church, one must keep oneself justified through one's good works. If you do good, you'll be expected to do more ad infinitum. Any wrong you do casts doubt as to your justification.

But our scenario is that someone can have rejected everything and lived wrecklessly. That doesn't necessarily mean the person doesn't have true faith. That only indicates the person is human. That person recognizes their sinful ways and takes solace in Christ. Eventually that person would produce good works. Maybe this is how you would frame your situation in the Catholic Church too.

I suppose if we do not assume we are once saved, always saved, as many would claim but I've personally had doubts about, we should not assume so much the distingishing point I mentioned above.

Apparently you must admit that faith alone saves in a sense. Maybe we do not disagree, I don't know..

Edited December 3, 2005 by jesussaves

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='jesussaves' date='Dec 3 2005, 03:26 PM']
Thank you for your engaging posts Pap.
[/quote]Anytime.

[QUOTE]Works that are from yourself without the grace of God do not count. Works by the unmerited grace of God count.[/QUOTE]Any good work is a cooperation with grace from God.

[QUOTE]I often say that works are necessary to the Catholic Church,[/QUOTE]You say that they are necessary for you too:[QUOTE]The works are necessary in my position, out of gratitude, but they do not justify.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]Our gosple grace in the final measure comes from faith alone.[/QUOTE]And this is the whole discussion isnt it? Please show me where it says that it is by faith [i]alone[/i]. Others have pointed out many passages where it says that one must act as well as have faith.

[QUOTE]If we are so similar, do you agree with Luther then when he says we are justified by faith alone, but faith is never alone? Apparently you agree with him, since you say the Catholic Church teaches that works are not part of the equation.
[/QUOTE]You misunderstand me. I never said that works were not part of the equation, but said that our works do not justify us. Via Canon 1 of session 6 of the Council of Trent[QUOTE]CANON I.-If any one saith, that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature, or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema.
[/QUOTE] Our works do not merit salvation except through Christ's grace. I can easily say the same thing about your notion of faith. Are you justifying yourself by your faith? Does your faith merit for you salvation?

[QUOTE]Here is Trent:
Canon 12. If anyone says that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in divine mercy, which remits sins for Christ's sake, or that it is this confidence alone that justifies us, let him be anathema.
[/QUOTE] What that canon is saying is that if someone says that justifying faith is nothing more that confidence in divine mercy, let him be excommunicated. Or if someone says that this confidence alone is what justifies, likewise. Since you like Trent here is another canon from that same session:[QUOTE]CANON IX.-If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema.
[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]In the Catholic Church, one must keep oneself justified through one's good works. If you do good, you'll be expected to do more ad infinitum. Any wrong you do casts doubt as to your justification.
[/QUOTE]I thought that you did not want to go into assurance on this thread...Plus, once again, we do not [i]keep ourselves justified [/i]through works.

[QUOTE]Apparently you must admit that faith alone saves in a sense.[/QUOTE]Why must I admit that? All that I have said is that man cannot save or merit salvation by his own works, but only through Christ. This does not mean, as you seem to take it, that works are not necessary, but simply that we do not place faith in our works as you make us out to do.