Lose limbo, but salvage purgatory

[Aloysius]

no, I'm arguing against that very notion-- the idea that an unbaptized inculpably ignorant person would, after death, be offered the grace to restore his fallen nature. I'm against that concept, saying that sufficient grace is offered to all during their lifetime, if they are not culpable for not accepting that grace due to other circumstances, then they fall into the inculpably ignorant category we are talking about.

eternal punishment is a different thing from punishment in time. in time, God might actively punish with the intention of making the person stronger and helping them grow and learn their lesson. eternal punishment it to satisfy Divine Justice, it does not have the goal of helping the punished.

original sin's effects post mortum on someone who did not necessarily deserve eternal punishment would then manifest as a passive punishment. God is not actively causing any torment upon them, He is merely leaving them alone, as opposed to what happens in eternal punishment.

[Aloysius]

[quote name='thedude' date='Dec 2 2005, 10:41 PM']Definately not a Feeneyist.  I just wanted to reference the quotes from Vatican II and they happened to be neatly layed out on my Feeneyism page.  Sorry.

I guess I have a different vision of the grace being offered.  I almost think of it as following the law written on the heart in making moral decisions.  In my way of thinking (maybe I'm wrong), everyone has responded to the grace by the actions they choose.
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ok, just so we're clear I'm no feenyist!

Vatican II is there saying the sufficient grace to be saved is offered for anyone who will accept it. The full version of accepting it is being baptized and joining the Catholic Church. If there are circumstances that prevent them from thusly joining that they are not culpable for, then they fall into all this discussion. They are judged according with the natural law, yes, but someone with original will automatically refuse to go to heaven, and we know of no way that God removes original sin except baptism. It would have to be extra-ordinary means to restore the fallen nature.

I am saying that God usually doesn't make a habit out of extra-ordinary things (unlike parishes and extraordinary ministers of holy communion ), and the only thing that fits in with His ordinary and normative means is some form of exclusion from heaven for anyone who dies with a fallen nature.

those who lived justly by the natural law but died with a fallen nature before Christ were put into a state of limbo, the bosom of abraham.

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Dec 2 2005, 09:48 PM']no, I'm arguing against that very notion-- the idea that an unbaptized inculpably ignorant person would, after death, be offered the grace to restore his fallen nature. 
[/quote]
Ok. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

[quote]eternal punishment is a different thing from punishment in time.  in time, God might actively punish with the intention of making the person stronger and helping them grow and learn their lesson.  eternal punishment it to satisfy Divine Justice, it does not have the goal of helping the punished. 
[/quote]Yes I understand that, but it does not seem to satisfy that women's labor pains are meant for repentance or conversion.

[quote]original sin's effects post mortum on someone who did not necessarily deserve eternal punishment would then manifest as a passive punishment. God is not actively causing any torment upon them, He is merely leaving them alone, as opposed to what happens in eternal punishment.[/quote]I believe that one could also say that Hell is the ultimate "leaving alone," for hell is the complete absence of God's presence.

But we digress... one, if not the, principle effect of original sin was the deprivation of original justice and sanctifying grace which resulted in the death of not only the body, but also of the soul. I am not so sure if inculpable ignorance plays into this because if look at the transmission of the sin of Adam, we find that personal and real assent to the Original Sin is not needed, for we share in it by being one in the family of Adam (meaning human).

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Dec 2 2005, 09:58 PM']those who lived justly by the natural law but died with a fallen nature before Christ were put into a state of limbo, the bosom of abraham. 
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That was because they were born under the Old Law, awaiting the Messiah. There was something more to come, Christ preaching to the souls as you said. Do you suggest that this will come again? Christ going back to limbo?

[Aloysius]

In Hell, souls are actively punsihed by the fire of God's divine wrath. The absence of God is an absence of communion with Him, a complete and utter disconnection and separation from Him, but He punishes them, he is acting upon them by punishing them.

it is inculpable ignorance for failing to get baptized, not inculpable ignorance for original sin itself. original sin is a state we are all born in, in this Age of Christ we are offered the way to restore our nature by the Church.

all suffering in the context of time can strenthen. God actively punishes during time always in order to strengthen us. Thus, the physical effects of original sin are active punishment by God... but any post mortum effect for original sin would not necessarily be an active punishment of God.

[Aloysius]

[quote name='Paphnutius' date='Dec 2 2005, 11:10 PM']That was because they were born under the Old Law, awaiting the Messiah. There was something more to come, Christ preaching to the souls as you said. Do you suggest that this will come again? Christ going back to limbo?
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I believe that to be a distinct possibility. Unlike most medieval theologians of limbo, I don't think that the state of limbo has necessarily been polarized to be completely eternal for the age of the New Testament.

Last time I proposed this, the immediate response was questioning the purpose of them being in Limbo until the second coming... well the purpose is to satisfy justice in regards the fallen nature of these people. they wait, not in progression and not in digression, they simply exist and do not change.

these are people judged to be just based on the natural law because they have no culpability for any actual sin, but have not been lifted out of the fallen nature that prevents them from going to heaven.

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

Doesn't the concept of limbo imply that the graces necessary to save an invincibly ignorant person are not really offered as Vatican II and recent Popes have said?

[Aloysius]

they are offered during life. a person may or may not be culpable for accepting or rejecting them. but if someone dies with a fallen nature, they will reject heaven. it would seem to me it would have to be either pre-mortum or at the point of death that God uses the extraordinary means to fix their fallen nature if this concept is to work. if a person enters the afterlife without having been baptized from original sin (even if it's in some extraordinary way that the Church says we do not know if it exists or not) then that person does not go to heaven. a fallen nature facing God after death will hide in the same way Adam and Eve hid.

[Paphnutius]

Original sin is the deprivation of sanctifying grace. Those who still have the stain of original sin are deprived of santcitfying grace. One must be in the state of grace upon death to be justified. One cannot be justified after death. Those who die out of the state of grace are condemned.

Where does limbo fit in?

[Aloysius]

ahhh horatio, horatio, horatio...

:

limbo is the edge of the abode of the dead. in the last age, the age of the old testament, it was not in eternity. if it is still not in eternity, but subject to time, then people waiting in limbo are waiting within the course of time. but in limbo they do not change for better or for worse, even though they exist in time.

but at the second coming of Christ, anyone who has not yet entered into eternity is subject to the Final Judgement. if limbo is still within time, then at the second coming of Christ He might come and free them and at that point offer to them to either accept Him and be justified or reject Him.

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Dec 2 2005, 10:48 PM']ahhh horatio, horatio, horatio...

:

limbo is the edge of the abode of the dead.  in the last age, the age of the old testament, it was not in eternity.  if it is still not in eternity, but subject to time, then people waiting in limbo are waiting within the course of time.  but in limbo they do not change for better or for worse, even though they exist in time. 
[/quote]


But the real question is: If it is in time are they like really, really, really old?!

Seriously though. I would ask how you support limbo being in time.

[Aloysius]

because if limbo, the edge of the abode of the dead, were ETERNAL then Christ would not have been able to preach to the just souls and offer them salvation when He descended there. also, it is logically impossible for Christ to have descended into eternal punishment.

therefore, it is not eternal. for a state to be non-eternal, it must be subject to time.

but Aquinas said that limbo now is deeper into the abode of the dead, so much so that it is now eternal. I am not convinced, I think it quite possible that there exists a limbo at the same stage the old limbo existed at, within time.

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Dec 2 2005, 11:00 PM']because if limbo, the edge of the abode of the dead, were ETERNAL then Christ would not have been able to preach to the just souls and offer them salvation when He descended there.  also, it is logically impossible for Christ to have descended into eternal punishment.
[/quote]
Yeah granted...I overlooked that for some reason.

So you think that a person can be justified after death as long as they have no entered into eternity? And it is your speculation that while a person may die without the state of grace, if he or she is inculpably ignorant God will grant them the [i]grace [/i] to remain in time so that He might justify them later?

[Aloysius]

people who are not culpable for actual sin and thus not deserving of active punishment, but have a fallen nature, may be in a state where God does not actively punish them but merely leaves them, there on the edge of the abode of the dead..

and only through an extra-ordinary non-normative act would a person be able to be lifted out of original sin after death. say... for example... the coming of a Messiah

but God cannot lift anyone out of an eternal state, because that would be a contradiction in terms-- if He could lift them out of that state, it would not be an eternal state.

[PadreSantiago]

well i say to you sir that if god can't lift me from an eternal state then he is not in fact god

[Aloysius]

if He lifted you out of an eternal state it wouldnt be an eternal state, then He wouldnt have lifted you out of an eternal state

[Aloysius]

anyway, that's a tangent. look up the topic "Could God make a rock..." for more information on things of that nature. the point is, if God ended that state, it would no longer be an eternal state. same reason God could not make a non-circle circle. if it was a circle, then it couldn't be a non-circle. same reason He couldn't make a non-squirrel squirrel, or a non-taco taco. if He made something non-taco, it wouldn't be a taco, if He made something non-squirrel, it wouldn't be a squirrel.

back to Limbo.... : a state on the edge of the abode of the dead not necessarily eternal or out of time and that thus theoretically could be ended.

[fatboyluis]

i am totally gob smacked by these discussions. im so glad i have joined this phorum im learning soo much, i would just like to ask how u are Aloysius? just out of curiousity, ur language is both clear and very very detailed information, if u get that?

lol anyways God Bless u all!!

[Aloysius]

I'm fine. lol, did you mean to ask how old I am? 18.

:

thank you for the compliment