Speaking in tongues

[son_of_angels]

I suggest all of you consider things this way;

If, in the middle ages, you suggested the idea of "speaking in tongues" as it is known in the charismatic churches/groups people would not know what the heck you were talking about. Likewise we do not have the exact form of hierarchy which the apostolic church had in its time, nor was the church, in apostolic times, a significantly Roman endeavor.

This is the beauty of Catholicism, we do not CREATE forms of religious expression, we RECEIVE them, from the properly constituted forms of religious tradition (Church councils, custom, etc.). Otherwise, Christianity itself becomes absurd in its application of such an ancient text as the Bible and as a religion itself. Christianity MUST BE Catholicism or it is foolishness.

Here is my point, the charismatic renewal, even that in the Catholic Church, did not stem from any legitimate movement in tradition (it would have been foreign even to the Fathers of Vatican II) or custom. Hence, it is not revealed to us, and therefore not a good marker of the faith.

Pray to our Lady! Pray to her the Spouse of the Holy Spirit! This is a revealed means of receiving the counsel of the Paraclete, more pleasing than a thousand "charismatic renewal" meetings.

[Aloysius]

[quote name='photosynthesis' date='Dec 3 2005, 01:23 PM']My friend is multilingual and Pentacostal.  She was at a worship service, and a lot of people were praying in tongues.  These were real human languages, not just babble talk.  She heard people speaking Russian, Chinese and Arabic, 3 languages she is very proficient in, and she did not hear people praising God.  Instead, they were shouting out horrible curses and blasphemies.
[right][snapback]809711[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]


[quote name='tomasio127' date='Dec 3 2005, 01:29 PM']If you friend herself was Pentecostal, she wouldn't have made that claim.
[right][snapback]809721[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

excuse me??? so if she was really Pentecostal, she would have ignored what she understood when she heard fellow Pentecostals speaking in tongues??

no, it seems she was pentecostal and proficient in many languages, and when she went to her pentecostal church and heard people talking in tongues she recognized bad things being said.

tongues are a blessing intended to reverse the curse at the Tower of Babel, when we were scattered and could not understand each other. It is the supernatural component to the Church's unity from God. of course, since it is an extra-ordinary gift that God only uses at special times, such as at Pentecost, the Church has a natural ordinary sign of her reversal of the Tower of Babel as well- Latin. :

but when people are all in a church and begin to speak aloud many different languages and none of them understand each other, what is this more a sign of?? the reversal of the Babel curse? or the curse itself?

if it truly is a tongue to speak to God the unspeakable utterances of your heart, why is it done aloud with many others to hear? St. Paul was wise to advise people not to speak tongues aloud unless there was an interpreter-- because to speak aloud in tongues not natural to yourself that no one else understands is the sign of a preterenature, not the sign of supernature. meaning the devil.

[N/A Gone]

joeyo=catholic whom has spoke in tongues

revprodeji=sits in corner and wets himself, whispering"they made me do it, they made me"

[Balthazor]

You guys have all given such great insights.
I think that the Catholic Charismatic movement is great. A little off my faith style but as long as it is orthodox I will support it.
I am a big beleiver in the Charismatic gifts of the spirit. I really think that there are more mystics out there than we know of, and do not reveal themselves because ... well to be blunt people would think that they are crazy or making it up. I hope that the Chaismatic movement creates a little more mystic friendly environment. Maybe it will hep people understand these gifts better and not be so fearful or skeptical of them. Not just tongues either but all of the gifts.

As for the worship service in question.. it was on a Wednesday night and I never stopped going to Catholic Mass and I did not take communion there even if it was offered so I think I am OK with that. It was more of a youth night than anything else but as far as I have heard their normal services are not much more than what I saw... a lot of singing and preaching and little to no ritual at all. So you all can rest easy. I never left the faith or even wavered in it.

I geuss I was just wondering if what I saw was for real. Ya know? I mean at the time I had never heard or seen anything like it. It made me wonder if the tongues they were speaking in were produced of God's will or of their own will. I beleive in "ask and you shall receive" but I never thought that it meant that what you ask for would be instananeous and that God would always say yes, even if it is a faith gift ..like speaking in tongues. This has had me stumped for a long time, it is not my place to judge since I do not know their hearts, however I think being skeptical is healthy otherwise we would all change religions ever time someone knocked on our door.

By the way, I really liked the comment about the spice in faith life. Too. Kudos: very good analogy. A meal and a faith life should be balanced; even the most gifted of Mystics went through dry spells and if they would have only relied on the "spice", that spiritual rush they got and not the whole meal they might not have remained true to their fatih or true to God. I mean praying even when you feel like God is not listening and you don't get the usual "rush" or warm fuzzies is a challenge.

I am so happy at all your repsonses.
I hope you guys keep replying because I am really enjoying all that you have to say.

balty

[tojo]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Dec 5 2005, 12:12 PM']excuse me??? so if she was really Pentecostal, she would have ignored what she understood when she heard fellow Pentecostals speaking in tongues??
[right][snapback]812047[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

No, I mean I believe someone along the way in the telling of that story was lying.

[Ziggamafu]

I believe when the Bible speaks of "tongues" it refers to foreign languages. However, I also believe that the more modern understanding of "tongues" was also around in biblical times. I don't know if it's a "gift of the Spirit"...I think it's mostly like a physiological response to losing one's self in emotion. With no words to articulate such a powerful experience, the brain makes the vocal cords cry out in a way that immitates the Spirit...with "groans and things not utterable" and what have you...which can be a very subjectively beneficial experience. Nobody can tell me that those friends and family of mine who demonstrate such a personal experience of edification are not benefitting by the practice.

It's weird...I still don't know exactly where I stand or what I think about it...

[blovedwolfofgod]

This is a twisted thought:

We are fallen beings. We suffer from concupiscience. Maybe all our spirits are capable of saying at some times is blasphemies because they are rife with the roots of sin. Prayer tongues, I have read, is an act that does not avoid the intellect. While the intellect knows the attributes of God, the spirit of a person may as yet not know. Therefore, people may not intend blasphemies, but their spirit can utter nothing else at that moment.

Note: I do not pass this off as anything more than a speculation...

But opening oneself up to spirits does send up red flags.

[tojo]

[quote name='blovedwolfofgod' date='Dec 6 2005, 03:25 PM']But opening oneself up to spirits does send up red flags.
[right][snapback]813574[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

All that the vast majority open themselves up to is the Holy Spirit.

[blovedwolfofgod]

But how do you distinguish. I mean, you can call on the Precious Blood and the Blessed Virgin and stuff like that... but how do you know if its the HS?

[tojo]

Well, the first clue is that the Holy Spirit draws you closer to Jesus, anything evil wouldn't.

Then there is also the simple fact that they are asking God for the Holy Spirit that is assurace based on this passage:

[quote]Luke 11:11-13

11"Now suppose one of you fathers is asked by his son for a fish; he will not give him a snake instead of a fish, will he?

12"Or if he is asked for an egg, he will not give him a scorpion, will he?

13"If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?" [/quote]

[Gal. 5:22,23]

Does anyone here have the Discovery Health Channel? It's on DirecTV. Anyway, last week they aired a program called "Exorcism." During one part of the show they hooked up a pentecostal woman to a machine that monitored her brainwaves. You could see that the different areas of her brain had different colors on the screen.

When she began worshiping and then speaking in tongues, you could visibly see the changes in her brain. The man administering the test talked about her being in an altered state. He then went on to say that the results were exactly the same as with two nuns who were praying (he didn't mention tongues with them) and going into ecstasy.

Interesting...

Edited December 6, 2005 by Gal. 5:22,23

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='tomasio127' date='Dec 6 2005, 02:46 PM']Well, the first clue is that the Holy Spirit draws you closer to Jesus, anything evil wouldn't.

Then there is also the simple fact that they are asking God for the Holy Spirit that is assurace based on this passage:
[right][snapback]813597[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

Protestantism draws people closer to Jesus.

[Aloysius]

[quote name='tomasio127' date='Dec 6 2005, 11:50 AM']No, I mean I believe someone along the way in the telling of that story was lying.
[right][snapback]813417[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
oh, I see, anyone who has examples of bad occurences of demonic tongues must be lying. I suppose that helps keep all tongues safe.

the experience of the Church says that demonic tongues are real. the experience of the Church and the light of scripture say that Satan deceives and appears as an angel of light, if He can convince you what He's doing is of God He succeeds.

like I said: the point of the gift of tongues is the reversal of the curse at the Tower of Babel. Any tongues spoken allowed should thus be a symbol of the breaking down from our confused babbeling by which we do not understand each other. So if you're speaking tongues out loud, and there's no one that understands what you're saying, your tongues are a symbol of the curse of the tower of Babel itself, not the reversal of that curse.

so when there's no one there to interpret, let all tongues be silent for fear of demonic forces.

The devil loves to make people think he's drawing them closer to Christ. false christs are more than just men claiming to be christ, they can include many different interior distortions of the person of Christ. one thing we must understand is Christ wants unity and understanding throughout His people. speaking allowed in tongues no one understands does not foster nor symbolize this unity.

"We do not seek a Christ whom we have invented, for it is only in the real communion of the Cathlic Church that we encounter the real Christ" -then Ratzinger, now Benedict XVI

[Balthazor]

and here I thought Eperanto was a reversal of the tower of Babel.

[Tink]

[color=#ff0066]Okeedoke, I haven't read the entirety of the thread, but I've read enough and here is my (less than perfect) case on the matter:

I believe that a lot of you have misunderstood or manipulated the purpose of 'speaking in tongues' as it is put. The purpose of such a form of worship is just that- WORSHIP. And you wonder why God would bestow such a gift if no one could understand? Because it is a form of communicating, more specifically, praising God. I don't fully support tha charismatic movement, I find a lot of 'healings' and 'gifts' of the Holy Spirit claimed to be experienced to be attention-seeking, overdramatic, or flat-out fake. However, as one who has personally seen particular devout (non-multilingual) Catholics using the tongue in ways impossible in human languages, I must vouch for the fact that it isn't all silly or a load of rubbish or what have you. When it is spurred by the Spirit and done in a total state of humility and selfless desire to worship, I have no doubt that it is holy and pleasing to the Lord.[/color]

[Tink]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Dec 6 2005, 10:10 PM']oh, I see, anyone who has examples of bad occurences of demonic tongues must be lying.  I suppose that helps keep all tongues safe.

the experience of the Church says that demonic tongues are real.  the experience of the Church and the light of scripture say that Satan deceives and appears as an angel of light, if He can convince you what He's doing is of God He succeeds.
[/quote]
[color=#ff0066]
I certainly agree with this. With a closeness to the Lord comes huge and grave spiritual danger. Satan would undoubtedly never hesitate to attack one speaking in tongues, especially if they themselves are trying to bring it by their own will. SO much spiritual warfare goes on in the hearts of mystics, which is why I am so skeptical when people who aren't very deep in their faith start 'speaking in tongues.' [/color]

[scardella]

I want to chime in on this:

BTW, I've been involved in a Charismatic community for some 7-8 years. Without the Charismatic movement, I wouldn't be the man I am today. I have seen people embrace it, then fall away a short time later. I have heard tongues. I've heard them interpreted. I've spoken in tongues. The Charismatic movement is the hook that landed me for Christ. I've struggled w/ it as my faith deepened. It is something I've thought about a lot over the past few years.

Here's my conclusion regarding "prayer tongues":
It is a gift of the Holy Spirit. It cannot be forced upon one. God grants it to some and not to others. Our language is limited. There are many times that our words do not do justice to what is contained in our hearts. Tongues is a gift to let us express those deepest groanings of the heart. That has been my experience with tongues.

Here's my conclusion regarding the Charismatic movement in general:
It is not enough to be charismatic. It is an outward expression of the joy and wonder one has at the gift of the faith and God's Love. So, yes, it is emotional, just like art. That does not make it invalid, however. It also cannot be the main focus of one's spirituality. It must be built upon the foundation of orthodoxy and orthopraxis. It is nourished by the Eucharist and adoration and and a deep prayer life. That is why many make it their focus, then fall away. People must always be conscious that it is a devotion and nothing more. When it accompanies a solid prayer life, it is like art. It shows outwardly the spiritual realities that you base your life upon. That is how it is a sign for the building up of others.

I hope that this is helpful

[Aloysius]

the concept of tongues spoken to God in a language only God understands makes sense EXCEPT when it is spoken in the presence of a group of other people who do not understand. St. Paul says to not speak tongues in Church unless there is an interpreter.

tongues spoken aloud are the reversal of the Babel curse, that's not me twisting what tongues are for--that's the Church's understanding for two thousand years. when there are people speaking aloud in tongues that no one understands, it is symbolic of the babbelling of the babel curse, and as such I cannot accept it as something from God.

[qfnol31]

Charisms, by definition, must bring the community closer to Adonai.

[Aloysius]

you randomly speakin in tongues here? well that's cool, since I can interpret: Adonai=Lord