Scripture debate with Works..

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This is from a debate I am having and I am interested in what others would reply with.
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About James 2:24
Quote:
"...James is dealing with people who profess to be Christians, and yet they don't evidence the reality of their faith by their works [deeds]. Over, and over again... people will say they have faith and they don't have works, and James is saying that real faith always produces works as a result... The question is, 'A man may say that he has faith, but will that faith justify him?' If it is just a 'said' faith" -- no, it won't!" (D. James Kennedy in "Irreconcilable Differences," a roundtable discussion and television broadcast, Ft. Lauderdale FL, 1995)


"Paul clearly teaches that we are justified by faith and not by works (Rom. 1:17). ...James declares, 'Was not Abraham our father justified by works' (2:21). ...James and Paul would be contradictory if there were speaking about the same thing, but there are many indications in the text that they are not. Paul is speaking about justification before God, while James is talking about justification before humans.

This is indicated by the fact that James stressed that we should 'show' (2:1icon_cool.gif our faith. It must be something that can be seen by others in 'works' (2:18-20). Further, James acknowledged that Abraham was justified before God by faith, not works, when he said, 'Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousnes' (2:23). When he adds that Abraham was 'justified by works' (v. 21), he is speaking of what Abraham did that could be seen by people, namely offer his son Isaac on the altar (2:21-22).

...Paul is stressing the root of justification (faith); James is stressing the fruit of justification (works). ...works as the proof of faith." [Norman Geisler and Thomas Howe, When Critics Ask (SP Publications, 1992), p. 528.]


How can you explain this verse?
Quote:

Titus 3:5 -- "He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit."


Regarding Salvation, D.L Moody has a nice quote.
Quote:
"God, being a perfect God, had to give a perfect Law, and the Law was given not to save men, but to measure them. I want you to understand this clearly, because I believe hundreds and thousands stumble at this point. They try to save themselves by trying to keep the Law, but it was never meant for men to save themselves by." D.L. Moody

[Paphnutius]

Quick thought on this since I saw a hole in it...I will try to write more later, but Abraham did not attempt to sacrifice his son in public. In fact he had hsi servants stay behind didnt he?So his works was not for others to see....

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someone wanna give some love?

[phatcatholic]

its kinda hard to follow b/c of how you have it formatted. is that his reply to you or are your posts and his posts mingled in?

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his post entirely

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all his post, just cut and dry

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phatty..LD...work some magic here..

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='Revprodeji' date='Dec 2 2005, 05:56 AM']About James 2:24
Quote:
"...James is dealing with people who profess to be Christians, and yet they don't evidence the reality of their faith by their works [deeds]. Over, and over again... people will say they have faith and they don't have works, and James is saying that real faith always produces works as a result... The question is, 'A man may say that he has faith, but will that faith justify him?' If it is just a 'said' faith" -- no, it won't!" (D. James Kennedy in "Irreconcilable Differences," a roundtable discussion and television broadcast, Ft. Lauderdale FL, 1995)[/quote]
agreed!!


[quote]"Paul clearly teaches that we are justified by faith and not by works (Rom. 1:17). ...[/quote]
Rom 1:17 doesn't say anything about discrediting works:

[b]Rom 1:17 [/b]For in it the righteousness of God is revealed through faith for faith; as it is written, "He who through faith is righteous shall live."

an affirmation of faith, is not by logical consequence a denial of works, especially when faith and works are so inextricably connected.


[quote]James declares, 'Was not Abraham our father justified by works' (2:21). ...James and Paul would be contradictory if there were speaking about the same thing, but there are many indications in the text that they are not. Paul is speaking about justification before God, while James is talking about justification before humans. [/quote]
haha, that's silly (don't write that of course, but really, it is ). we don't work to be justified before man, or to man, or by man. we work to be justified before the Lord. HIS acceptance is all that matters. and abraham was willing to sacrifice his Son b/c that's what the Lord wanted. abraham's primary motive was pleasing the Lord. was anyone even around when he did it?

but maybe that's not what you mean here. maybe you mean justified as in "repair your relationship with man when you do him wrong." but that too has no relevance to what Abraham did. he didn't move to sacrifice his son for [i]anyone[/i] but the Lord.

the fact is, paul and james don't contradict each other b/c they are in fact talking about the same thing, just a different aspect of it. Paul and James presuppose each other. when paul refers to a faith that saves, he has in mind an [i]obedient[/i] faith. when james refers to works that save, he has in mind works that are [i]motivated by faith[/i]. it is in that way that they are reconciliable..........not by placing a wedge in between them that doesn't belong.


[quote]This is indicated by the fact that James stressed that we should 'show' (2:1icon_cool.gif our faith. It must be something that can be seen by others in 'works' (2:18-20). Further, James acknowledged that Abraham was justified before God by faith, not works, when he said, 'Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousnes' (2:23). When he adds that Abraham was 'justified by works' (v. 21), he is speaking of what Abraham did that could be seen by people, namely offer his son Isaac on the altar (2:21-22).[/quote]
how in the world was Abraham's act seen by anyone? he did it on top of a mountain. no one was around but the son he was about to sacrifice and the goat who was caught in the bushes. i doubt the goat was all that impressed, and like we've already said, Abraham took a knife to his son for the Lord and the Lord only. the Lord said that Abraham's faith had saved him once he saw the [i]work[/i] that Abraham was about to do. again you present a false dichotomy between faith and works that simply does not belong.


[quote]...Paul is stressing the root of justification (faith); James is stressing the fruit of justification (works). ...works as the proof of faith." [Norman Geisler and Thomas Howe, When Critics Ask (SP Publications, 1992), p. 528.] [/quote]
agreed!!


[quote]How can you explain this verse?
Quote:

Titus 3:5 -- "He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit." [/quote]
well, i take this to mean that our good deeds are meritorious not b/c we willed to do them, but b/c they were motivated by the grace of the Lord. every good deed finds its source in the Lord. the Catholic Church has never denied this.


[quote]Regarding Salvation, D.L Moody has a nice quote.
Quote:
"God, being a perfect God, had to give a perfect Law, and the Law was given not to save men, but to measure them. I want you to understand this clearly, because I believe hundreds and thousands stumble at this point. They try to save themselves by trying to keep the Law, but it was never meant for men to save themselves by." D.L. Moody[right][snapback]808264[/snapback][/right][/quote]
well, which law are we talking about? the liturgical and ceremonial laws of the Old Covenant, or the moral precepts of the Ten Commandments, which are maintained and fulfilled in the New Covenant in Jesus Christ? Jesus came not to abolish the law, but to fulfill it (cf. Mt. 5:17). also, you are right, before Jesus came, the law could do nothing but humiliate man, show him the ways in which he is imperfect. it could not save him. but now, b/c Jesus opened the way for grace to be poured lavishly upon us, we have the means with which to do good and to reconcile ourselves with the Lord. we can.........and we must.
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i don't know, probably not the best thing i've ever written. these were just some thoughts i had off the top of my head. i hope it helps.

pax christi,
phatcatholic

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awesome..thanks

[thessalonian]

[quote name='Revprodeji' date='Dec 2 2005, 03:56 AM']This is from a debate I am having and I am interested in what others would reply with.
-------------------------------
About James 2:24
Quote:
"...James is dealing with people who profess to be Christians, and yet they don't evidence the reality of their faith by their works [deeds]. Over, and over again... people will say they have faith and they don't have works, and James is saying that real faith always produces works as a result... The question is, 'A man may say that he has faith, but will that faith justify him?' If it is just a 'said' faith" -- no, it won't!" (D. James Kennedy in "Irreconcilable Differences," a roundtable discussion and television broadcast, Ft. Lauderdale FL, 1995)
"Paul clearly teaches that we are justified by faith and not by works (Rom. 1:17). ...James declares, 'Was not Abraham our father justified by works' (2:21). ...James and Paul would be contradictory if there were speaking about the same thing, but there are many indications in the text that they are not. Paul is speaking about justification before God, while James is talking about justification before humans.

This is indicated by the fact that James stressed that we should 'show' (2:1icon_cool.gif our faith. It must be something that can be seen by others in 'works' (2:18-20). Further, James acknowledged that Abraham was justified before God by faith, not works, when he said, 'Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousnes' (2:23). When he adds that Abraham was 'justified by works' (v. 21), he is speaking of what Abraham did that could be seen by people, namely offer his son Isaac on the altar (2:21-22).

...Paul is stressing the root of justification (faith); James is stressing the fruit of justification (works). ...works as the proof of faith." [Norman Geisler and Thomas Howe, When Critics Ask (SP Publications, 1992), p. 528.]
How can you explain this verse?
Quote:

Titus 3:5 -- "He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit."
Regarding Salvation, D.L Moody has a nice quote.
Quote:
"God, being a perfect God, had to give a perfect Law, and the Law was given not to save men, but to measure them. I want you to understand this clearly, because I believe hundreds and thousands stumble at this point. They try to save themselves by trying to keep the Law, but it was never meant for men to save themselves by." D.L. Moody
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[/quote]


We are saved in the sense of initial justification COMPLETELY by God's grace. By the washing of water and the laver of regeneration in baptism. Before that point our works are worthless and we could fill a skyscraper with poor and feed them and still end up in hell theoretically. But in Christ we are a new creation and grace begins to move us. In fact all salvation is by God's grace. We are saved by grace alone but not by faith alone. Most certainly works are evidence of our salvation, for it says "you shall know them by their fruits". If one is not doing good one is not saved. But you can't, with an honest reading of Matt 25, sheep and goats and Romans 2:4-8 say that works have no effect on our salvation.

Romans
[4] Or do you presume upon the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience? Do you not know that God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance?
[5] But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed.
[6] For he will render to every man according to his works:
[7] to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;
[8] but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury.
[9] There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek,


They are in fact what we be presented before God. This, protestants take to be a denial of grace, through faith. But it is not if you read Eph 3:20. For it is God working in and through us, i.e. grace that causes us to do the works presented to him at our death. We are saved by grace alone, but not faith alone, for faith without works is dead. "Not everyone who says Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven but those who DO the will of My Father."

The real issue in these discussions is can we fall from grace. Your friend likely assumes some version of Once Saved Always Saved or eternal security. We believe one is completely saved by grace even in the works we do. But we believe that if one stops doing good he can fall from grace (see gal 5) [4] You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.
[5] For through the Spirit, by faith, we wait for the hope of righteousness.).

One cannot fall from a tree that one is not in. Therefore one must in fact, once "saved" produce fruit or he will according to Romans 2 do evil and be lost. Our lives must be filled with doing good rather than evil.

My 2 cents

Edited December 7, 2005 by thessalonian

[thessalonian]

Another distinction must be made between "works of the law" which Paul speaks of and works of charity which is the context or romans 2:4-8. We are not at all saved by works of the law and that is what the whole book of galatians is about. Circumcision no longer contributes to salvation, but a clean heart working for God does. The distinction is evident in Is 1 where God decries the very works, (sacrifice of goats and bulls) because they have neglected the widow and the orphan. This distinction must be kept in mind when reading Pauls writings. God never gave up on the widow nad the orphan.

[11] "What to me is the multitude of your sacrifices?
says the LORD;
I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams
and the fat of fed beasts;
I do not delight in the blood of bulls,
or of lambs, or of he-goats.
[12] "When you come to appear before me,
who requires of you
this trampling of my courts?
[13] Bring no more vain offerings;
incense is an abomination to me.
New moon and sabbath and the calling of assemblies --
I cannot endure iniquity and solemn assembly.
[14] Your new moons and your appointed feasts
my soul hates;
they have become a burden to me,
I am weary of bearing them.
[15] When you spread forth your hands,
I will hide my eyes from you;
even though you make many prayers,
I will not listen;
your hands are full of blood.
[16] Wash yourselves; make yourselves clean;
remove the evil of your doings
from before my eyes;
cease to do evil,
[17] learn to do good;
seek justice,
correct oppression;
defend the fatherless,
plead for the widow.
[18] "Come now, let us reason together,
says the LORD:
though your sins are like scarlet,
they shall be as white as snow;
though they are red like crimson,
they shall become like wool.
[19] If you are willing and obedient,
you shall eat the good of the land;
[20] But if you refuse and rebel,
you shall be devoured by the sword;
for the mouth of the LORD has spoken."

These words are no less for us today. We must take care of the poor and then we will be rick, spiritually. We can't just say "i'm going to heaven because I am Catholic and go to Mass". We have to live it or lose it.

Jas.1
[27] Religion that is pure and undefiled before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world.

Edited December 7, 2005 by thessalonian

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thanks fellow minnesotan, prays for your trip

[thessalonian]

[quote name='Revprodeji' date='Dec 7 2005, 06:45 AM']thanks fellow minnesotan, prays for your trip
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NP :

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its cold out there today...what do you drive?

[phatcatholic]

great posts, thess!!