Is God good or evil?

[Semalsia]

How do you know that God is good?

[photosynthesis]

The Eucharist.

[Aloysius]

Well, God is by definition the cause of the existence of all the universe. So the question is, do you believe that the universe, by nature, is good.

We as Christians believe that all the physical world, by nature, is good. We explain evil as the deficiency caused in that nature, anything evil is automatically sub-natural, it is automatically something that twists nature, by definition.

If you believe the nature of the physical world is good, then the cause of the physical world must also be good (by their fruits you can know them, something evil would not create things that are by nature good, something good would not create things that at their nature are evil).

All of this is not so much a proof, but shifting to the premise that the physical world is good by nature. If the physical world is good by nature, then God is good by nature. Accept one premise and it's logical to accept the other.

It depends on how you define evil, too. By our definition, evil is not something with a nature in itself, evil is a twisting of good natures.

[The Joey-O]

This is also a question of will, not just nature. If one uses his will in such a way that it is in line with the will of God, then one's action is good. However, if one seeks to perform a function or enact their will in such a manner that it is outside the will of God, then it is evil. For example, it might be fine for me to draw a picture, but if it is revealed to me that God doesn't want me to draw a picture, it would then be evil for me to do so. Drawing a picture isn't fundamentally evil. However, disobeying the will of God is.

[Semalsia]

[quote name='Aloysius']So the question is, do you believe that the universe, by nature, is good.[/quote]

How do you determine whether the universe is good or evil?

[quote name='Aloysius']something evil would not create things that are by nature good, something good would not create things that at their nature are evil[/quote]

Unless the creation was by accident, but I guess that doesn't apply to God.

Edited December 3, 2005 by Semalsia

[Theoketos]

Easy Answer: Revelation.


Though one can also know through reason. God as prefection must be the greatest good. Even Aristotle knew that God is the greatest good.

[Semalsia]

[quote name='The Joye-O']Drawing a picture isn't fundamentally evil. However, disobeying the will of God is.[/quote]

Then let me rephrase my question: why is God's will worth obeying?

[Aloysius]

God's will is always in line with perfecting the natural.

Evil is defined as a deficiency or twisting of nature, then it is clear that NATURE has to be good. God being defined as the cause of all things that exist, if those things have a good nature, then God must be good.

The definition of what is perfect nature, and thus what is good, is a whole nother ballgame. But good is defined as the perfection of nature. God is defined as the cause of the nature of all things.

[Paphnutius]

Semalsia,

Have you ever read the Summa Theologica by St. Thomas Aquinas? I would highly recommend it. A lot of the questions you have here are addressed by him.

[The Joey-O]

God is by his very nature superior, perfect, etc. This is so, because everything in existence comes from him. Therefore, he set the standards. If this were not so God would be inherantly contradictory. So, God must be ontologically superior in every way to Creation.

Creation itself, must too be good then, since God is good and created it. However, God gave certain agents within his Creation the freedom to choose to follow his divine order, the functions that they were created to perform or to choose to do something else. Some of the agents chose to do something else, and thus evil was born. Evil isn't so much a thing as it is a distortion of a thing. A mirror is good. A shattered mirror is not good. As fallen Images of God, we are all shattered mirrors.

[Semalsia]

Aloysius,

Are you saying that all things that exist are good, because they exist? Then what is wrong with saying that existence is the same as goodness and that God is good, because he exists?

[Aloysius]

if evil is a deficiency in nature, then perfected nature is good.

like I said, this is not so much a proof as shifting to different premises that mean the same thing. you have to accept the premise that evil is a deficiency in nature and that nature is good to say God is good.

if you think God is evil, then you would be saying that everything is by nature deficient and twisted, by its nature. that it is not as perfected as it could be, by its nature. this really doesn't make sense, it makes more sense to say that anything that is not good is sub-nature, and thus the nature of everything is good. and if that premise is accepted then the cause of all good things' nature is good.

[Semalsia]

[quote]if you think God is evil, then you would be saying that everything is by nature deficient and twisted, by its nature. [/quote]

Well, I don't think God is evil.

[quote]Have you ever read the Summa Theologica by St. Thomas Aquinas? I would highly recommend it. A lot of the questions you have here are addressed by him.[/quote]

I suppose I'll try to find it and take a look then.

[Guest JeffCR07]

"God" as a meaningful term is "that than which nothing greater can be conceived."

If I conceive of God as being "evil" or even as being not supremely good, then I could conceive of a being greater than God (namely, a supremely good being). However, refering back to our definition, we find that God can only be that than which nothing greater can be conceived. Therefore, the evil being I was conceiving of before was never God in the first place, and only the supremely Good being can be God.

Yours in Christ,

Jeff

[Laudate_Dominum]

"God is good!"

"All the time!"

"All the time!"

"God is good!"

so there.

[philothea]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='Dec 3 2005, 12:10 AM']"God is good!"

"All the time!"

"All the time!"

"God is good!"

so there.
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I think that pretty much settles it.

[Myles Domini]

Evil is by nature a privation (absence of something that should be present) not a substance. When a man is sick we say he is in a bad way, right? Why is that? Because good health is the normal functioning of all his internal systems and bad health is what happens when the natural functions of the body become impaired. Evil can only ever be known in the absence of some good that should be present. However, in God there can be no privation. As St Thomas Aquinas teaches:

[quote]I answer that, The existence of God can be proved in five ways.

The first and more manifest way is the argument from motion. It is certain, and evident to our senses, that in the world some things are in motion. Now whatever is in motion is put in motion by another, for nothing can be in motion except it is in potentiality to that towards which it is in motion; whereas a thing moves inasmuch as it is in act. For motion is nothing else than the reduction of something from potentiality to actuality. But nothing can be reduced from potentiality to actuality, except by something in a state of actuality. Thus that which is actually hot, as fire, makes wood, which is potentially hot, to be actually hot, and thereby moves and changes it. Now it is not possible that the same thing should be at once in actuality and potentiality in the same respect, but only in different respects. For what is actually hot cannot simultaneously be potentially hot; but it is simultaneously potentially cold. It is therefore impossible that in the same respect and in the same way a thing should be both mover and moved, i.e. that it should move itself. Therefore, whatever is in motion must be put in motion by another. If that by which it is put in motion be itself put in motion, then this also must needs be put in motion by another, and that by another again. But this cannot go on to infinity, because then there would be no first mover, and, consequently, no other mover; seeing that subsequent movers move only inasmuch as they are put in motion by the first mover; as the staff moves only because it is put in motion by the hand. Therefore it is necessary to arrive at a first mover, put in motion by no other; and this everyone understands to be God. --Summa Theol.I:2:3

[/quote]

I would recommend to you the following chapters of the Summa Theologica:

[url="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/104800.htm"]This one dealing with evil[/url]
[url="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/104900.htm"]This one dealing with the cause of evil[/url]

INXC
Myles

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='JeffCR07' date='Dec 2 2005, 11:58 PM']"God" as a meaningful term is "that than which nothing greater can be conceived."

If I conceive of God as being "evil" or even as being not supremely good, then I could conceive of a being greater than God (namely, a supremely good being). However, refering back to our definition, we find that God can only be that than which nothing greater can be conceived. Therefore, the evil being I was conceiving of before was never God in the first place, and only the supremely Good being can be God.

Yours in Christ,

Jeff
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Leave it to the Anselmnian to say such a thing.

[PadreSantiago]

God is beyond good and evil. God probably doesn't even know what that means because he isn't in any way like a human being. I mean what if some secret bible passage was found that said God was evil and satan was good what does that even mean to them. If god is evil well than that's all there is. If god was good well than that would be all there is.

Edited December 3, 2005 by PadreSantiago

[Guest JeffCR07]

[quote name='Paphnutius' date='Dec 3 2005, 08:50 AM']Leave it to the Anselmnian to say such a thing. 
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hahaha, of course