Is the God of Christianity and Islam the Same?

[God's Errand Girl]

I am curious to see what many of you who frequent the debate forum believe about this topic.

If you respond, please do not post opinions only. I wanna see solid, hard evidence from rational argument, the Scriptures, Church doctrine, and even the words of the Koran (if applicable).

I already have a strong standpoint on this topic, but want to remain neutral (at least initially) for the sake of argument.

Alright, go at it!

[rkwright]

I only know a little about islam... but def not enough to quote it... but I thought historically they derive their faith from Ishmael? son of Abram and Hagar... thus I think their God historcially is the same as the Jewish one and ours.

[Era Might]

[quote]We Christians joyfully recognize the religious values we have in common with Islam. Today I would like to repeat what I said to young Muslims some years ago in Casablanca: "[b]We believe in the same God, the one God, the living God, the God who created the world and brings his creatures to their perfection[/b]" (Insegnamenti, VIII/2, [1985], p. 497). The patrimony of revealed texts in the Bible speaks unanimously of the oneness of God. Jesus himself reaffirms it, making Israel's profession his own: "The Lord our God, the Lord is one" (Mk 12:29; cf. Dt 6:4-5). This oneness is also affirmed in the words of praise that spring from the heart of the Apostle Paul: "To the king of ages, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen'"(1 Tm 1:17).

We know that in the light of the full Revelation in Christ, this mysterious oneness cannot be reduced to a numerical unity. The Christian mystery leads us to contemplate in God's substantial unity the persons of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit: each possesses the divine substance whole and indivisible, but each is distinct from the other by virtue of their reciprocal relations.

3. Their relations in no way compromise the oneness of God, as the Fourth Lateran Council explains (1215): "Each of the persons is that supreme reality, viz., the divine substance, essence or nature.... It does not generate, is not begotten and does not proceed" (DS 804). The Christian doctrine on the Trinity, confirmed by the Councils, explicitly rejects any form of "tritheism" or "polytheism". In this sense, i.e., with reference to the one divine substance, there is significant correspondence between Christianity and Islam.

However, this correspondence must not let us forget the difference between the two religions. We know that the unity of God is expressed in the mystery of the three divine Persons. Indeed, since he is Love (cf. 1 Jn 4:8), God has always been a Father who gives his whole self in begetting the Son, and both are united in a communion of love which is the Holy Spirit. This distinction and compenetration (perichoresis) of the three divine Persons is not something added to their unity but is its most profound and characteristic expression.


--Pope John Paul II

[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2MUSLM.HTM"]http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2MUSLM.HTM[/url][/quote]

Edited December 3, 2005 by Era Might

[rkwright]

after a quick google...

from wikipedia (I know some people have problems with this! but anyways!)

[quote]Quoting from the Qur'an, sura An-Nisa 171:

    "O People of the Scripture! Do not transgress the limits of your religion, and do not say about GOD except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was only a messenger of GOD, and His word that He had sent to Mary, and a revelation from Him. Therefore, you shall believe in GOD and His messengers. You shall not say, "Trinity". You shall refrain from this for your own good. GOD is only one god. Be He glorified; He is much too glorious to have a son. To Him belongs everything in the heavens and everything on earth. God suffices as Lord and Master." [/quote]

so maybe we believe in the same God, but as far as the persons of God, they would naturally not believe in them. So I guess if we're talking God the Son, the answer is no...

[Paphnutius]

When Islam professes the Trinitarian God then yes. Until then we may dialogue on our shared belief in a one God, but must still recongize the vital difference of Christ.

[rkwright]

[quote name='Paphnutius' date='Dec 3 2005, 06:58 PM']When Islam professes the Trinitarian God then yes. Until then we may dialogue on our shared belief in a one God, but must still recongize the vital difference of Christ.
[right][snapback]809965[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

yea but do the Jews profess a trinity? yet I would be very hesistant to say we worship a different God than them.

is it possible to say that we worship the same God, just we know him more fully?

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

the jews worship the same god as we do, but they just do not know God's true nature. moslems im going to say no.

[Socrates]

[quote name='rkwright' date='Dec 3 2005, 06:19 PM']yea but do the Jews profess a trinity?  yet I would be very hesistant to say we worship a different God than them.

is it possible to say that we worship the same God, just we know him more fully?
[right][snapback]809979[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
If the Muslims worship the same God, they have a lot of false ideas about Him. And I don't consider Mohammed to have been a follower or a prophet of the True God.

[Aloysius]

as the Catechism says, they profess to hold the same belief as Abraham and they acknowledge the Creator.

meaning they intend to worship the same God. God certainly sees that, God certainly approves of that over the worshipping of idols et cetera, but true worship of the One True God can only be initiated by God Himself, and Christians do not believe God instituted the religion of Islam nor that he instituted the ways they attempt to worship Him, in that sense we can say that it is not true worship of God.

[rkwright]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Dec 3 2005, 07:49 PM']as the Catechism says, they profess to hold the same belief as Abraham and they acknowledge the Creator. 

meaning they intend to worship the same God.  God certainly sees that, God certainly approves of that over the worshipping of idols et cetera, but true worship of the One True God can only be initiated by God Himself, and Christians do not believe God instituted the religion of Islam nor that he instituted the ways they attempt to worship Him, in that sense we can say that it is not true worship of God.
[right][snapback]809997[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

oo interesting to come at it from the angle of the word 'worship'

[Nathan]

Jews, Christians, and Muslims all worship one God, the God of Abraham. What that God is all about and what He has revealed to us is where our differences lie.

Muslims see Jesus as a prophet sent from God (note: [i]not[/i] God Himself) to preach Islam, but that people misinterpreted/corrupted the message and it became a false religion called Christianity; and so then God had to send another prophet, named Mohammed, to set things straight. Christians see Mohammed as a false prophet who laid the foundation for a false religion called Islam. Jews, of course, reject both.

[Aloysius]

"Islam was something like a Christian heresy. The early heresies had been full of mad reversals and evasions of the Incarnation, rescuing their Jesus from the reality of his body even at the expense of the sincerity of his soul."

"To do Mohammed justice, his main attack was against the idolatries of Asia. Only he thought, just as the Arians did and just as the Unitarians do, that he could attack them better with a greater approximation to plain theism. What distinguishes his heresy from anything like an Arian or Albigensian heresy is that, as it sprang up on the borders of Christendom, it could spread outwards to a barbaric world."

-GK Chesterton

even before I read Chesterton, I used to identify Islam as something of a Christian heresy, look it up in my posts years ago I'm pretty sure I mentioned something about it here-- that Mohomad studied Judaism and Christianity, accepted that they were dealing with God but then disagreed and basically founded a kind of heresy denying the Trinity.

anyway, yep, it is a certain very odd type of Christian heresy. if it weren't for Islam, Christianity would probably have advanced through that area. Imagine: the whole muslim world being Christian. quite sad that Mohammad had to mess things up the way he did. The two worst charecters in all of Christinaity in my opinion are Mohommad and Henry VIII. if not for them, Catholocism would be able to claim about 53% of the world.

[PadreSantiago]

it's the same god.

[Nathan]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Dec 3 2005, 07:41 PM']if it weren't for Islam, Christianity would probably have advanced through that area.  Imagine: the whole muslim world being Christian.  quite sad that Mohammad had to mess things up the way he did.  The two worst charecters in all of Christinaity in my opinion are Mohommad and Henry VIII.  if not for them, Catholocism would be able to claim about 53% of the world.[right][snapback]810062[/snapback][/right][/quote]

Perhaps God's plan includes allowing certain people like Mohammed and Henry VIII to succeed in what they do for a reason -- namely, to challenge us and shake us a bit, to make faith in the Church not so easy. I could be way off base, but it's just a thought.

[Aloysius]

as long as you're talking about His passive will's allowance of free will.

[Nathan]

Basically. I certainly don't believe God would make Henry VIII do what he did on purpose.

[blovedwolfofgod]

It is an interesting thought...

I will take this from the nature of God's Love approach.

Christians believe that God is trinitarian and his parts, though all consisteng of the same essence, having neither genus nor specie, are one and yet because they are distinct within the same essence, are able to love each other. God's intellect concieved the Word, and Jesus is that Word made flesh. God loved His Word because it is part of himself and concieved by himself while being one in essence with himself, hence the part of the creed "God from God, light from light, True God from True God, begotton, not made, one in being with the Father." Because God love's His Word, which is also one in being with Him manifested as the Holy Spirit, God's very nature is Love. It is an act of his nature, not an act of his intellect. (I hope I described that clearly )

The Muslim conception of God is not a trinitarian Father, Son, and Spirit... but rather, it is of one God that has no parts within himself. Therefore in order to love, He had to create because love is something that must be between two or more entities, that which loves and that which is loved. This means that God loves as an act of His Intellect and not of His nature. They believe that God can be arbitrary and withhold His grace from relatively faithful followers. EVery soul saved is not of the Divine Nature, but of the Intellect meaning God could and may easily withhold his mercy from those whose spirits are contrite and humble.

Now, God can do what He wants, but to not try and save humanity, He would go against His nature (please correct me if i have fallen into heresy). That is a huge difference between the conception of God that the Muslims have and the conception that the Christians have. I do not wish to go against the teachings of the pontiff, however, and say that their God is different... though it does not seem like we worship the same God. A God of Love vs. a God of Choice... hmmm... familiar.

[N/A Gone]

Catechism 841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."

I have a working knowledge of the six doctrines of islam. In all respect for the christians here allow me to word them in an evangelical language. For I learned along time ago most of our differences come from language.

God is an all powerful, all seeing, all knowing creator. This view is very similar to the jewish view of God. minus the trinitarian theology

angels,(gabriel to Shaitan and the jinns...based on the hebrew terms for satan and denoms)

Scripture 4 God inspired books: torah of moses(xn call the pentateuch) the Zabur(pslams of david) the Injil(a version of the gospel of Jesus) and the Qur'an. but because doctrinally muslims believe that Jews and christians corrupted their scripture the Qur'an is Allah's final word to mankind, superseding all previous writings.

mohammed The quran lists 28 prophets of Allah, including Adam, noan abraham, moses, david, Jonah, and Jesus. but the last and greatest is Mohammed

Eschatology(end times) on the last day the dead will be resurrected. Allah will be the judge, and each person is sent to heaven or hell. Heaven is a place of sensual pleasure, hell is for those who oppose Allah and his prophet Mohammed.

Predestination God has determined what He pleases and no one can change what He has decreed (kismet, doctrine of fate) from this doctrine comes the most common islamic phrase,"if it is Allah's will"

Five Pillars of the faith:

Statement of belief to become a muslim, a person must publically repeat the Shahadah:"There is no god but Allah and Mohammed is the prophet of Allah."

Prayer Muslims pray five times a day-daybreak, noon, midafternoon, after sunset, early evening. The Muslim must kneel and bow in the prescribed manner in the direction of the holy city, Mecca.

Alms Muslim law today requires the believer to give one/fortieth of his profit (2.5%) this offering goes to the widows, orphans, the sick and other unfortunates.

Ramadan The ninth month of the islamic lunar year is called ramadan and is the highest Muslim holy season. Muslims are required to fast for the entire month. Food and drink, as well as smoking and sexual pleasures are forbidden, but only during daylight hours. During Ramadan, many muslims eat two meals a day, ther first just before sunrise, and the other shortly after sunset. During Ramadan, the believer must not commit any unworthy acts. If he does, his fasting is meaningless

Pilgrimage to mecca the Hajj, must be performed at least once in a lifetime. Or send someone in his/her place.

How the Qur'am contradicts the bible.

The bible has has an important influence on the teaching of Islam. For instance, the muslim proudly traces his ancestry to Ishmael, a son of Abraham. Muslim beliefs about the nature of God, the resurrection of the body and judgment are roughly similar to the teachings of the bible. But there are some striking differences. Here are some I have found of Muslim ideas contradicting what is taught in scripture.
For Muslims God is one, period Th QUr'an explicitly attacks the christian teaching on the trinity, saying that anyone who ascribes "partners" to God is committing the sin of shirk(blasphemy). This prohibition is explicitly directed against the christian doctrine of the trinity and the teaching that Jesus is God. Many muslims are also erroneously taught that Christians are reallyu tri-ttheists who believe in God the father, mary the mother, and Jesus the son. This grotesque caricature of the trinity is a complete misrepresentation of what the bible teaches and christians believe. Muslims also teach that Allah is transcendent (all-powerful) and relatively impersonal. Of the 99 names ascribed to God in Islam, "father" is omitted (to avoid the idea of the father and the son) This is in stark contrast to the Bible and to Jesus' own teaching, which says that God is our personal heavenly father. While one of the 99 Muslim names for God is "the merciful," he is not viewed primararily as a dispenser of love and grace, but more as a righteous judge to whom the Muslim must give account.
The Qur'an denies that Jesus is the son of God although is describes the virgin birth in a passage similar to luke 1:26-38(see Surah 3:45-47). The Qur'an calls Jesus a prphet equal to Abraham, Jonah, and others; bu places Him in rank far below Mohammed. Surah 4:171 says that "Jesus...was only a messenger of Allah...far is it removed from His transcendent majesty that He should have a son" Mohammed totally ignored what the New testament says about Jesus' divinity (see, matt 8:29; 17:5; John 1:1-5; 8:58; 10:30, 14:9; 20:28; Col 1:15-17; 2:9) instead of admitting that verses like these exist, Muslims claim Christian have changed the bible.
The Qur'an says that Christ never really died on the Cross "they slew him not nor crucified, but it appeared so unto them'(Surah 4:157) According to Islam, Allah took Jesus to heaven just before the crucifixion, because it is unthinkable that an approved prophet of God should face such humiliating defeat. Muslims say Judas made up so cleverly to resemble Jesus that even Mary and the Disciples were fooled. A minority muslim theory is Jesus was in a coma on the cross and was taken down, revived and later died. Obviously, all of this is in complete opposition to the teaching of the bible and witness of early patristic history. As we have seen, the cross is the center of God's redemptive plan. The crucifixion of Christ was prophesied in the OT. Eyewitness accounts of that crucifixion are contained in each of the four gospels. Jesus predicted his death many times(see matt 16:21). Why did he die? as a ransom for many(mark 10:45) He promised that through His shed blood there would be fgorgiveness of sins (matt 26:2 As for Judas, the gospels tell us that he was the one who betrayed Jesus (see mark 14:10.11,43-45) and in remorse for what he did Judas hung himself. This is a major problem area in the testimony of islam. They claim this "eyewitness" testimony counter anything in patristic history, and developed it 400yrs after any possible witnesses were dead. In a nutshell there is no source from which this doctrine could be contributed to. Not even the early heresys felt this way.
Surah 4:111 declares that each perso must take care of his or her own sins The muslim must earn salvation from sin by following the 5 pillars of faith, if he doesnt make it, its his own fault:"whoever goes astray he himself bears the whole responsability of wondering"(surah 10:109) In contrast the bible teaches that we all have sinned and gone our own way. The only way mankind can find forgiveness is through faith in Christ.

In summery the major differences between Muslims and Christians

regarding God Muslims believe there is no God but Allah; Christians believe that God is revealed in scripture as father, son and Holy spirit, three persons who are coeternally God.

Regarding Jesus christ Muslims believe that Jesus was only a man, a prophet below Mohammed in importance, who did not die for man's sins; Christians say Christ is the son of God the sinless redeemer who died and rose again in fullfillment of scripture for sinful man.

Regarding sin Muslims claim that humans are born with hearts that are clean slates. If they commit sins, these can be overcome by acts of the will, christian counter that we are born corrupted(original sin) by sin, spiritually dead apart from God's grace, and that no one does good apart from faith.

Regarding salvationMuslims say that Allah does not love those who do wrong, and each person must earn his or her own salvation; christians contend that a loving God sent His son to die for our sins; according to the scripture.

I hope and pray I did an accurate and respectful job of comparing the common points and differences in our two faiths.,

[blovedwolfofgod]

beat my attempt...

[N/A Gone]

thanks....I do what I can.