Plenary Indulgence

[thessalonian]

[quote]-see...I am having a huge problem with this language. And the concept. I have always been taught in atonement that christ paid for the sins on the cross. What exactly did the cross do if we still pay? Are we not just a y2k jew? Thes you even write [COLOR=red]Christ paid the price but the grace he earned has to be applied if we believe Christ paid, than why are we-repaying?[/quote]

My kid wants to go to a football game. He doesn't have the money. I give him five bucks and he goes to the game and pays to get in. How is that him paying for it? He didn't earn the money. He does not have to sacrifice other things for it such as his life. He essentially get's in free. There is a price for sin. God set up the world such that when we sin, we are broken. If what you say were true there would be no consequence for sin. Yet where there is sin, grace abounds so that the sinner is brought out of his sinful tendancies over time. That is the chastisement for sin spoken of in Heb 12. This all involves grace. If it does not then you still run in to your problem. We are somehow responsible for our sanctification. Sanctification is free as well. We can claim no part of our salvation. We are saved and sanctified by grace alone.

[N/A Gone]

I agree we are responsable. I just see that the consequence for sin is what it does to our soul, how it affects our relationship with God(ala sanctification process) but I dont see language that says anything about individual payment for the individual sins. Also, in a sancitificaion process the concept of an indulagance paying for all those sin consequences makes no sense cause they do not equal it. Our payment can not equal the debt.

Sin seperates us from God, christ paid for the sin, but the effects of sin on us is the seperation of ourselves driving away from God. This is what we need to work with. Not a monatary pay back for offense ala fine.

[N/A Gone]

btw...I mean all respect possible in the dialogue Sir..thank you very much, the essence of it and my lack of conscience understand is frustrating to me. But I must let you know I am in debt to the help you are providing

[morostheos]

Here's how it was explained to me...I hope it helps.

Pretend your soul is a beautiful door (it doesn't have to be a door, just something made out of wood). When we sin we put nails in the door. Confession takes the nails out (forgiveness), but we're still left with the hole from the nails (the effects of sin on our soul). God doesn't have any doors in heaven with holes in them, so purgatory is basically where everyone fixes all the holes in their doors before going to heaven. An indulgence is when we ask God to help us fill in the holes while we're still on earth.

[N/A Gone]

that makes sense..I like that, sounds alot like the protestant concept of sanctification.

what I dont like is the sound of "payment for sins" and how an indulgance removes our need to pay..thank you Moro..perhaps our issue here is just language cause I can work with what you wrote..

btw, My priest sent me this. I was copying my posts here and sending it to him.
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Dear Jon--

I follow your logic as you speak of purgatory as a place where "we work through a vice of ours." All of our existence is that, not just some future state after we die ... we cooperate with God's grace now. The Church's faith in purgatory is a simple statement that that process may continue, by God's help, if we need it (and I fully expect to, seeing how far yet I have to go). I would accept your take on indulgences as a help in drawing closer to the Lord. Having said all that, there is no harm in doing the stipulations that the granting of the indulence ask ... it doesn't mean you have to understand or even appreciate them. Do them, but just for their own sakes.

Hope that helps.

Ciao--