question from a protestant

[shortnun]

If I may comment on the Mary questions.....

I would ask your friend what he means by "biblical" basis for Mary being the anti-Eve. In so far as the words "Mary is the new Eve" are contained in Scripture, I defer to Phatcatholic, but I'm fairly certain they're nowhere to be found. However, interpretors of Scripture over time (throughout tradition) applied a method of interpretation known as "typology."

[u]Examples of typology:[/u]
Melchizedek ---> Jesus (cf Letter to the Hebrews)
Eve ---> Mary
Sarah (barren one) ---> Elizabeth
Abraham ---> Zechariah
Adam ---> Jesus
Elijah ---> JBap (scholarly slang for John the Baptist, I'm a dork)
JBap ---> Jesus
12 tribes ---> 12 apostles
Isaac (son of sacrifice) ---> Jesus
Moses (law-giver) ---> Jesus

In most examples of typology, the person on the left is like Nintendo 64 and the person after the arrow is like XBox. (I hope that anology works for you folks.) Now, let's take the Mary/Eve example and expound upon it.

Instead of highlighting the similarities of these two women, instead, the differences are emphasized.

[u]Eve: [/u]---> [u]Meriam:[/u]
sinner ---> sinless
disobedient ---> obedient
naked ---> clothes
sexualized---> virginized
died ---> assumed

My question for us to ponder, is that as believers, do we see Anti-Semitic tendencies behind this thinking? How are we upholding the trunk (Judaism) to which we are a branch which has been grafted on (Christianity)? Does this thinking help our relationships with our Jewish brothers and sisters, or hinder it?

Lastly, in response to your friend's response about Mary (that is to say, that he's a little taken aback by the Roman Catholic position on her sinlessness), it is entirely understandable. I myself have been wrestling with Mary's position in contemporary theology and devotion. For those outside of Catholic tradition (and sometimes even those within it!), Mary can often seem to over-shadow (or be equal) to beliefs about Jesus Christ. These are issues that we, as a church, must address better in our catechesis of believers and non-believers.

Edited December 9, 2005 by shortnun

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='Revprodeji' date='Dec 9 2005, 12:28 PM']here was his reply...enjoy[/quote]
i shall

btw, what's the topic of this debate supposed to be? i'll go ahead and answer everything he says here, but note that you are under no obligation to respond to things that are off-topic. if u chase every bit of bait he sets out, you'll get nowhere.


[quote]about that guy you said that says he is still saved while killing you... He isnt truly saved...because when you are saved...the grace of God would fill you and would fulfill you..when you accept chirst..the holy spirit would guide you...no one in his right mind would think of shooting...[/quote]
well, shooting and killing someone is certainlly gravely sinful, and so we would have reason to doubt the strength of his relationship w/ the Lord. in this sense i suppose i agree. however, what's ironic is what statements like this from protestants really says about an assurance of salvation. are you really assure of salvation if every time you gravely sin everyone accuses you of never having been saved at all? that doesn't seem like much of an assurance to me. actually, it seems alot more like the Catholic belief, in which a person can live in communion with the Lord, but he can also sever this communion by sinning mortally.


[quote]yes...faith without works is dead...because the work is the evidence of faith... BUT FAITH is the one that saves you... work is the fruit of your faith. good works flows naturally when you have Christ.. when your doing bad things....your faith is questionable wether you are truley sincere or not.... [/quote]
the reason this "faith-works" debate is so difficult is b/c we don't even define words like "faith", "works" and "save" the same way. depending on how you define these words, the catholic either agrees or disagrees with this statement.

if by "faith" you mean "obedient faith that is inseperable from works" then catholics agree that faith saves, as long when you say "saves" you mean "leads to sanctification" and you understand that this sanctification is something that can be lost. however, if by "faith" you mean "merely intellectual assent" and if by "saves" you mean "grants an eternal assurance of salvation in this life" then a Catholic must deny that "faith saves". as you can see, the catholic response depends very much on how we define the terms.


[quote]WOW...mary being sinless..... This is a huge statement... I know now and understand the big difference between the catholic faith and protestant faith... i DONT AGREE mary being sinless...

Christ was sent to earth to die for us...He is sinless so that our sins would be cleansed... Mary however...is a blessed woman...but she isnt sinless... IF mary is sinless than, there would be no reason for Christ to be sent to earth to die for us...for it would prove that man can be without sin... Christ died for us because Man cannot be perfect...man cannot be without sin..man cannot follow the 10 commandments perfectly ....it is in our human nature... the only reason why Christ didnt sin is because He has both human and Divine nature... while mary having a human nature cannot avoid sin.... Christ died for us to saved us from sin... God knew when adam sinned....the whole human race is doomed to sin... so Christ was sent to earth... [/quote]
mary's sinlessness does not contradict anything he just said about Christ's work and why he had to come to this earth. it is important here to emphasize the fact that Jesus died for mary too. there WAS reason for him to come. she was due to receive the fallen nature that all men receive. she could not have avoided this on her own. if it were not for the Son filling her with his grace she would have been sinful like the rest of us. man CAN in fact be without sin...................when he is filled with the grace of the Lord. since he filled her in the beginning, instead of sometime during her life (as he fills us) she was able to avoid sin her whole life.


[quote]This is just so puzzling..... The bible tells the story of Christ, the glory of Christ the grace and mercy of Christ.... while mary was only a tiny part of the story...The big story was Christ.... it is so puzzling that mary is now elevated to the level of Christ in the catholics view...this is just so sad.... [/quote]
this shows a complete ignorance of the role of mary in the life of the catholic. she always leads to Christ, and elevates him above herself. a marian devotion leads one closer to Christ. to the outsider, our marian doctrines are so foreign that they seem to elevate her to a place where she does not belong. "oh, they believe she is sinless. this MUST mean that they place her on the same level as Christ." well, it is simply NOT SO. all the marian doctrines are christo-centric. they all reveal and affirm some truth about Christ. sinlessness does not mean "divinity." adam and eve were made sinless and this is surely something that protestants believe. should we then accuse them of elevating adam and even to the place of gods? surely not! all the accusations that non-catholics made regarding our marian doctrines are simply logically inconsistant.


[quote]at first i thought the difference between catholic and protestant is tradition....but now i can see the difference....and it is just so sad...

personnally...i have nothing against traditions as long as it is placed second from the faith... because we are saved by faith and not by traditions... if traditions can make a person more faithfull...so be it... but it isnt the tradtions that would save you but if you have the faith in you.... [/quote]
agreed.


[quote]rev i know you are an educated catholic and i dont claim to be an expert in religion but please keep an open mind in your faith... because these are the things which are important to us...our salvation....
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he should educate himself on these things before he speaks on them.....

[missionseeker]

I heard someone describe the 'Mary to Christ' issue kind of like this:

In the morning, right before you can see the sun , it begins to get light. Then all of a sudden the sun is there. Mary can be likened to the light right before the Son.

That's not exactly how he said it, but that is the general idea.

[missionseeker]

[quote name='photosynthesis' date='Dec 9 2005, 11:37 AM']I think it's funny when Christians talk about how traditions are so bad, and I'm like "well I guess you won't be celebrating Christmas this year.  smells of elderberries to be you."
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Some denominations around here don't because it isn't in the Bible as Dec. 25. They also don't have T.V.s or other similar stuff. But they can watch movies and drive cars

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='shortnun' date='Dec 9 2005, 04:01 PM']"JBap"
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This reminded me of something silly. Fr. Raymond Brown came up in another thread so I thought I'd remark that the shortening of John the Baptist to JBap is perhaps my supreme pet peeve when reading his stuff (I know its not just him, but still, I like picking on him).

I've made a vow that should I ever become a scholar, or a pseudo-scholar or am simply in a situation where I might feel tempted to adopt that shorthand, I will never do so. John the Baptist is much to worthy of respect for that.

bed time

[missionseeker]

Good night.

[Guest Rick777]

[quote name='missionseeker' date='Dec 6 2005, 08:22 PM']I had to answer this once. A guy (at a youth conference, no one that I know) started saying things that were well... just wrong. I, the only Catholic in the place, had to say something. This question came after many others.

He said that he knew he was saved, that he was going to Heaven no matter what because he beleived that Jesus Christ was his Savior. He told me that he could shoot (and kill) me and then trn around and kill himself and go straight to Heaven. Then he quoted something (sorry, I don't remeber what exactly it was) about Faith alone. Which if I remeber correctly he twisted it to say what he wanted it to.
I told him that in James, it says "Faith without works is dead" However I di n't know then which chapter or verse. Since then, I have looked it up, because I am very likely to be in that same situation agian. Here they are.
James 1:22
James 2:14-20
James 2:26

and of course (because these words are straight from Jesus' mouth, )
Matthew chapter 25. The main part you want is verse 31 to the end of that chapter.
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that was a really good answer!

[missionseeker]

Thanks.

[missionseeker]

And about that "assured eternal salvation" thing,

If Eternal Salvation is assured, why is Christ constantly saying "Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him."?

And the parable of the ten virgins,

[quote] 1"At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. 2Five of them were foolish and five were wise. 3The foolish ones took their lamps but did not take any oil with them. 4The wise, however, took oil in jars along with their lamps. 5The bridegroom was a long time in coming, and they all became drowsy and fell asleep.
6"At midnight the cry rang out: 'Here's the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!'

7"Then all the virgins woke up and trimmed their lamps. 8The foolish ones said to the wise, 'Give us some of your oil; our lamps are going out.'

9" 'No,' they replied, 'there may not be enough for both us and you. Instead, go to those who sell oil and buy some for yourselves.'

10"But while they were on their way to buy the oil, the bridegroom arrived. The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet. And the door was shut.

11"Later the others also came. 'Sir! Sir!' they said. 'Open the door for us!'

12"But he replied, 'I tell you the truth, I don't know you.'

13"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour[/quote].



If there was something that we did that [i]assured[/i] our eternal Salvation, why wouldn't He just say something like "You know not the day nor the hour so, if you just do [u]this[/u] you're good." Instead of, If you are caught unready,I will not recognize you and you will not be able to get in.

[phatcatholic]

i think someone who believes in OSAS would respond to that by saying, "oh, well that's why you have to make sure you accept Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior as soon as possible!! once you do that, then when he comes he will deem you ready."

just playing devil's advocate

[missionseeker]

probably.

[phatcatholic]

this is a good exercise because it helps you to figure out which arguments are effective and which ones are not.

[missionseeker]

ah, but now I'm all out so I'll have to just sit back and watch.

[eddieloudog]

Wow, this was a good string! I have been often confronted by the Mary question. I am able to at least point out the fact that we don't worship her. This was helpful!

[LouisvilleFan]

I'm joining this thread a little late, but this one is interesting because I've been answering questions from my Baptist roommates about Marian devotion since I've started going to RCIA.

[quote name='Revprodeji' date='Dec 9 2005, 12:28 PM']here was his reply...enjoy
-----
ei rev,
about that guy you said that says he is still saved while killing you... He isnt truly saved...because when you are saved...the grace of God would fill you and would fulfill you..when you accept chirst..the holy spirit would guide you...no one in his right mind would think of shooting...

yes...faith without works is dead...because the work is the evidence of faith... BUT FAITH is the one that saves you... work is the fruit of your faith. good works flows naturally when you have Christ.. when your doing bad things....your faith is questionable wether you are truley sincere or not.... [/quote]

When you read the sections of the Catechism about faith and the basics that are necessary for salvation, Catholics actually agree with Protestants. Faith in Christ is the basis of our salvation and good works are the fruit of faith. However, most Protestants try to separate the faith from the works and that's what this question is getting at.

Yes, the Catechism also says that Catholics must attend Mass, go to Confession, etc. But again, these good works are all grounded in faith. Eating and drinking the Body and Blood of Christ provides no grace to those who have no faith. However, we who do believe eagerly attend Mass at least on Sunday's and Holy Days, although not out of obligation, but out of joy.

[quote name='Revprodeji' date='Dec 9 2005, 12:28 PM']WOW...mary being sinless..... This is a huge statement... I know now and understand the big difference between the catholic faith and protestant faith... i DONT AGREE mary being sinless...

Christ was sent to earth to die for us...He is sinless so that our sins would be cleansed... Mary however...is a blessed woman...but she isnt sinless... IF mary is sinless than, there would be no reason for Christ to be sent to earth to die for us...for it would prove that man can be without sin... Christ died for us because Man cannot be perfect...man cannot be without sin..man cannot follow the 10 commandments perfectly ....it is in our human nature... the only reason why Christ didnt sin is because He has both human and Divine nature... while mary having a human nature cannot avoid sin.... Christ died for us to saved us from sin... God knew when adam sinned....the whole human race is doomed to sin... so Christ was sent to earth... [/quote]

Wow... looking back on my own journey, I remember how weird it felt to pray the rosary the first time. Mary's sinlessness does not reduce God's glory. In fact, her soul magnifies the Lord. In her own words, she says, "How my spirit rejoices in God my Savior!" (Luke 1:47)

God, in his inifinite wisdom, desire to provide for his Son the best mother anyone could have. That God was able to intervene and save Mary from the stain of Original Sin does not mean that God could have done this for everyone person ever created.

In fact, were not Adam and Eve also created without Original Sin? And for a woman to bear God-made-flesh in her womb required true purity and submission to God's will. In addition, Christ inherited his human nature from Mary, and this human nature could not be allowed to have any stain or blemish.

And here's another point that God revealed to me while meditating on this: Christ was, is, and always will be Christ. Christ who rose into Heaven and is now seated at the right hand of God is the same Christ who was crucified, and the same Christ who established the Eucharist at the Last Supper, and the same Christ who was baptized by John the Baptist, and the same Christ who was found in the Temple at 12 years old, and the same Christ who cried in Mary's arms as an infant... and the same Christ who began to grow within Mary's womb after the Holy Spirit conceived Him. Christ was once only a few cells growing inside Mary's womb. How could God allow His Son's flesh to be defiled with the blood of a sinful mother? Indeed, Mary and Christ shared the same beating heart for about 23 days. The Blood of Jesus that would be shed 33 years later for our salvation was also Mary's blood until Christ was born.

Now, for the sake of all humanity, I find it impossible to imagine Mary was a sinful, rebellious person like the rest of us.

[quote name='Revprodeji' date='Dec 9 2005, 12:28 PM']rev i know you are an educated catholic and i dont claim to be an expert in religion but please keep an open mind in your faith... because these are the things which are important to us...our salvation....
[/quote]

I've been hearing the same advice from many of my Protestant friends. My mind has been open all along. I've even been too open minded about some things, but I cannot find a legitimate reason to reject Catholicism.

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' date='Dec 11 2005, 04:00 PM']The Blood of Jesus that would be shed 33 years later for our salvation was also Mary's blood until Christ was born. [right][snapback]820620[/snapback][/right][/quote]
oh man, good call i never thought of that

[missionseeker]

[quote name='phatcatholic' date='Dec 11 2005, 01:01 AM']this is a good exercise because it helps you to figure out which arguments are effective and which ones are not.
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you should start a "practice your apologetics skills" thread. ^

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='missionseeker' date='Dec 12 2005, 11:06 PM']you should start a "practice your apologetics skills" thread. ^
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oh man, that does sound like a good idea!! u pick a topic and i'll pretend to be the protestant

[missionseeker]

umm.. hmm, so many to chose from. Why not this one(Faith alone) ?

[missionseeker]

or Mary. and the Saints. That one may be a little easier.