Quick Question

[phatcatholic]

ok, my understanding has always been that the cross that hangs behind the altar does not necessarily have to be a crucifix as long as the cross that is brought forth during the entrance procession of the mass is a crucifix. i took this from the following paragraphs from the GIRM:[list][b]117. [/b]The altar is to be covered with at least one white cloth. In addition, on or next to the altar are to be placed candlesticks with lighted candles: at least two in any celebration, or even four or six, especially for a Sunday Mass or a holy day of obligation. If the Diocesan Bishop celebrates, then seven candles should be used. Also on or close to the altar, there is to be a cross with a figure of Christ crucified. The candles and the cross adorned with a figure of Christ crucified may also be carried in the Entrance Procession. On the altar itself may be placed the Book of the Gospels, distinct from the book of other readings, unless it is carried in the Entrance Procession.
[. . .]
[b]122. [/b]On reaching the altar, the priest and ministers make a profound bow.

The cross adorned with a figure of Christ crucified and perhaps carried in procession may be placed next to the altar to serve as the altar cross, in which case it ought to be the only cross used; otherwise it is put away in a dignified place. In addition, the candlesticks are placed on the altar or near it. It is a praiseworthy practice that the Book of the Gospels be placed upon the altar.
[. . .]
[b]188. [/b]In the procession to the altar, the acolyte may carry the cross, walking between two ministers with lighted candles. Upon reaching the altar, the acolyte places the cross upright near the altar so that it may serve as the altar cross; otherwise, he puts it in a worthy place. Then he takes his place in the sanctuary.
[/list]however, para. 308 from the GIRM says that there should always be a crucifix on or near the altar, not just during the mass:[list][b]308. [/b]There is also to be a cross, with the figure of Christ crucified upon it, either on the altar or near it, where it is clearly visible to the assembled congregation. It is appropriate that such a cross, which calls to mind for the faithful the saving Passion of the Lord, remain near the altar even outside of liturgical celebrations.
[/list] so, was my understanding of paragraphs 117, 122, and 188 incorrect, or is there some way to reconcile them with para. 308?

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[Paphnutius]

Umm I will take a shot at it:

Paragraphs 117, 122, and 188 state that there must be a crucifix on or at lease near the litrugy at all times, but the crucifix may be brought in through the procession. So what is clear is that either 1)There is a permanent crucifix near the altar and no need for a processional one. OR 2)There is a permenanet crucifix near the altar, but one may use one in procession that should be put away after the procession. OR 3) There is no crucifix near the altar except for that one which is in the procession, which then serves as the crucifix near the altar.

HOWEVER...

Paragraph 308 states that a crucifix should be present all times even outside of the liturgy.

So...I would understand that if #3 is the case in the former paragraph, then when there is no liturgy the processional crucifix is to remain at the altar. The procession is considered apart of the liturgy so it appear to be permissible for there to be no crucifix near the altar at the beginning as long as one is carried in procession to be placed near the altar. Outside of the liturgy it is to remain in its place near the altar. It is clear though, from paragraph 122 (case #3 as well) that if the processional cross is to be the altar crucifix then there should be no other cross present at the altar.

Does that make sense? One may use the processional crucifix as the altar cross (meaning there is no other one there until the procession) but outside of the litrugical procession it is to remain at the altar even outside of liturgy.

Edited December 10, 2005 by Paphnutius

[Paphnutius]

OKay I need to work on being more clear and concise.

The altar crucifix may be carried in the liturgical procession and placed near the altar(implying that there is no crucifix at the altar during the procession par 122). Otherwise it is to remain near the altar even outside of the liturgy.

Was the better without the long rant?...

Edited December 10, 2005 by Paphnutius

[franciscanheart]

i like the longer explanation better

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='hugheyforlife' date='Dec 10 2005, 03:25 PM']i like the longer explanation better
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Thanks.

[journeyman]

Another way of putting it (perhaps)

If there is a "permanent" crucifix at or near the altar, then the processional crucifix is used in the procession, and then put somewhere other than near the altar (over to one side during Mass; at the back of the sanctuary or in the sacristy when there is no Mass(?))
If there is no permanent crucifix - then the processional crucifix is kept at or near the altar at all times - exept for the moments when it is taken to the back of the sanctuary to be used in the procession

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='journeyman' date='Dec 10 2005, 08:55 PM']Another way of putting it (perhaps)

If there is a "permanent" crucifix at or near the altar, then the processional crucifix is used in the procession, and then put somewhere other than near the altar (over to one side during Mass; at the back of the sanctuary or in the sacristy when there is no Mass(?))
If there is no permanent crucifix - then the processional crucifix is kept at or near the altar at all times - exept for the moments when it is taken to the back of the sanctuary to be used in the procession
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[/quote]
well, if that is the case, then i've seen alot of Catholic churches that are in error on this point. (they either have a cross sans corpus, or they have a cross w/ Jesus ascending. if Jesus is depicted as ascending, is he actually [i][b]on[/b][/i] the cross?)

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='phatcatholic' date='Dec 11 2005, 12:00 AM']well, if that is the case, then i've seen alot of Catholic churches that are in error on this point. (they either have a cross sans corpus, or they have a cross w/ Jesus ascending. if Jesus is depicted as ascending, is he actually [i][b]on[/b][/i] the cross?)
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[/quote]
I believe it is supposed to have Christ crucified. I do not think that the risen Christ on the cross is acceptable. That being said, we have a lot of parishes in error on this point too. Either that or they will have two crucifixes.

[journeyman]

from Q&A
[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=44136"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=44136[/url]

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='journeyman' date='Dec 11 2005, 05:41 PM']from Q&A
[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=44136"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=44136[/url]
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[/quote]
yea, it was actually that question that inspired this thread

[tojo]

[quote name='journeyman' date='Dec 10 2005, 08:55 PM']Another way of putting it (perhaps)

If there is a "permanent" crucifix at or near the altar, then the processional crucifix is used in the procession, and then put somewhere other than near the altar (over to one side during Mass; at the back of the sanctuary or in the sacristy when there is no Mass(?))
[right][snapback]819954[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

I believe I've usually seen processional crucifixes placed in the sacristy after the procession at churches that have permanent crucifixes.