conservativism in catholicism?

[Era Might]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Dec 11 2005, 08:29 PM']I'd have to disagree here.  For many, our study and understanding of Catholic teaching and principles leads toward conservative political principles.
Others may disagree with this, but it is simply false and ignorant to claim that conservatism must be unrelated to one's Faith.
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[/quote]

It has nothing to do with Catholicism as a religion. Your political outlook is not the Church's. It is yours. So long as we keep that perspective, and do not project our opinions onto the Church, or pretend the Church is a mouthpiece for the Republican or Democratic parties, there will be no problems.

Unfortunately, people of all political stripes are more than willing to claim the Church for their ideology. The Church transcends temporal politics. She is not Republican or Democrat, Liberal or Conservative. She provides moral guidelines, and leaves the concrete application to the conscience of individual believers.

This is why some conservatives get in a hissy fit when the Bishops oppose a war or capital punishment, and why some liberals get in a hissy fit when they oppose abortion or gay marriage. They think the Church is here to play the game of politics. She isn't. Her message is eternal, and cannot be tied down with any partisan entity.

Edited December 12, 2005 by Era Might

[Socrates]

[quote name='Era Might' date='Dec 11 2005, 06:34 PM']It has nothing to do with Catholicism, as a religion. Your political outlook is not the Church's. It is yours. So long as we keep that perspective, and do not project our opinions onto the Church, or pretend the Church is a mouthpiece for the Republican or Democratic parties, there will be no problems.

Unfortunately, people of all political stripes are more than willing to claim the Church for their ideology. The Church transcends temporal politics. She is not Republican or Democrat, Liberal or Conservative. She provides moral guidelines, and leaves the concrete application to the conscience of individual believers.

This is why Conservatives get in a hissy fit when the Bishops oppose a war, and why Liberals get in a hissy fit when they oppose abortion. Both camps mistake the Church for a temporal constituency.
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Understanding of Catholic principles can and does lead many to political conservatism.

Conservatism is a political philosphy.
The Republican Party is a political party.
The two are not necessarily identical.

[Era Might]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Dec 11 2005, 08:42 PM']Understanding of Catholic principles can and does lead many to political conservatism.

Conservatism is a political philosphy.
The Republican Party is a political party.
The two are not necessarily identical.
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Of course it CAN, and of course it DOES. This is not in dispute.

Understanding of Catholic principles can and does lead to many political systems of thought. None of them are "Catholic", as such. Catholics may support them, but these systems of thought will never be identified with the Church. As I said, she is above partisan politics. We, as laypersons, are not above partisan politics. It is our duty in the civil realm to engage them. Our vocation is distinct from that of the universal Church.

Edited December 12, 2005 by Era Might

[Lil Red]

ugh

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='Era Might' date='Dec 11 2005, 04:06 PM']The Church conserves and progresses. She conserves the Deposit of faith, but she is very liberal with new ideas, new ways of understanding and living that Deposit. An ecclesial entity which only "conserved" would never have incorporated pagan philosophy into Christianity. At the same time, an ecclesial entity which progressed with everything in every age would not have a Deposit of faith to conserve. The Church is where she should be: in Christ.
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how are we liberal with new ideas? examples please.

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Dec 11 2005, 06:42 PM']Understanding of Catholic principles can and does lead many to political conservatism.

Conservatism is a political philosphy.
The Republican Party is a political party.
The two are not necessarily identical.
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[/quote]
i agree

[Era Might]

[quote name='infinitelord1' date='Dec 11 2005, 08:51 PM']how are we liberal with new ideas? examples please.
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The word "liberal" denotes an openess. Like any virtue, a liberal attitude can be too open, just as a conservative attitude can be too closed. The Church is not opposed to new ideas. Rather, she integrates new ideas into the eternal deposit of Divine Revelation.

As a concrete example, consider Pope John Paul II's Encyclical Letter "Ut Unum Sint":

[quote]I am convinced that I have a particular responsibility in this regard, above all in acknowledging the ecumenical aspirations of the majority of the Christian Communities and in heeding the request made of me to find a way of exercising the primacy which, while in no way renouncing what is essential to its mission, is nonetheless open to a new situation.[/quote]

The Holy Father is not afraid to open the Church up to new thoughts, new ways of exercising the Apostolic primacy of St. Peter. The key to his liberality of thought, however, is a firm faith in "what is essential to its mission". This is not up for negotation.

A rigidly "conservative" Church would not be open to new forms of Roman primacy, and a licentiously "liberal" Church would not stand firm on "what is essential" to the mission of the Apostolic See.

Edited December 12, 2005 by Era Might

[N/A Gone]

we have both..and thats the beauty of it. we are not cookie cutters like many want the world to believe.

[ThomasDM]

You guys might be suprised to hear that Christian Conservatism [that includes Catholicism] is a phenominon found mostly in North America. The rest of the world, large parts of Europe, are very Catholic, but much more liberal. They accept everyone, as Jesus taught. They tend towards nonviolence, as Jesus taught. And they strive a bit more for an egalitarian society [instead of staunchly Capitalist] which Jesus taught.

Yes you will find Conservative Catholics in other parts of the world, but it really is, for the most part, isolated to the United States and parts of Canada. This is because the U.S. tends to be very Conservative.

Yes the Vatican releases many very Conservative statements, but the rest of the world has no reservations about debate within the Catholic church, possitive dissent, and sharing all sides of the argument...that's the intelligence that God gave us. Not just blindly taking everything at face value.

I've thought about it. I've been a Conservative. And I truly thought about what Jesus would do. I honestly see very little in Conservatism that he would be happy with. The views on abortion and euthanasia yes. But not the free market, the interolerance and refusal of acceptance for everyone [Jesus accepted prostitutes and people of other religions...he never forced anyone to convert or shun them if they didn't, he led by example.] I doubt he would support the death penalty, tax cuts for the rich while the poor starve, unjust wars, lying to the American people, The outsourcing of jobs to take advantage of the poor in other parts of the world.

And I'm VERY certain that he would disagree with the amount of money that Conservatives here in North America spend on weapons [especially when the money could go to the poor.]

"The U.S. military budget request for Fiscal Year 2006 is $441.6 billion. (This includes the Defense Department budget and funding for nuclear weapons activity of the Department of Energy Budget. It does not include other items such as money for the Afghan and Iraq wars ($49.1 billion for Fiscal Year 2006), or Homeland Security funding ($41.1 billion for Fiscal Year 2006), for example.)"

Had the Iraq war not occured you could take the 49.1 billion dollars for 2006 alone and feed and shelter some people in other parts of the world. What is the more noble cause?

I asked myself what Jesus would do, so I usually favour Social Democracy...or the left of the spectrum. No I'm not pro-abortion, I'm against it. But in the 6 years that the Bush Administration has been in office....it's actions have been overwhelmingly non-Christian. And abortion is still legal...after 6 years.

Peace be with all of you,

-Tom

Edited December 12, 2005 by ThomasDM

[morostheos]

[quote name='Lil Red' date='Dec 11 2005, 07:50 PM']ugh
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You can say that again!

[Nathan]

ThomasDM, read the "Swedish Pastor Aquitted" thread just a few threads down in this forum. THAT is what liberalism is doing to European society. And my country, Canada, is not too far behind.

Edited December 13, 2005 by Nathan

[Socrates]

[quote name='ThomasDM' date='Dec 12 2005, 10:56 AM']You guys might be suprised to hear that Christian Conservatism [that includes Catholicism] is a phenominon found mostly in North America.  The rest of the world, large parts of Europe, are very Catholic, but much more liberal. [/quote]
Unfortunately, I'm not surprised, just saddened.
Most of Europe, including most traditionally "Catholic" countries such as Spain and Italy, are no longer "very Catholic," but have become Catholic in name only (much like the "liberal Catholics" in America.) Most people in those countries no longer seriously live their faith, and most do not even attend mass on Sunday. Contraception and abortion are rampant, and these countries now have rapidly aging, and already declining, populations.

[quote]They accept everyone, as Jesus taught.  They tend towards nonviolence, as Jesus taught.  And they strive a bit more for an egalitarian society [instead of staunchly Capitalist] which Jesus taught.[/quote]
What do you mean by "accept everyone"? If you're referring to "gay rights" or similar promotions of immorality, your statement is nonsensical. Christ never taught us to accept sin. He said to the woman caught in adultery, "go and sin no more." Christ calls sinners to repent and turn to Him - He does not tell people to continue living in sin, and certainly would not be for legal benefits for people living in sin.

And where does Christ teach "nonviolence"? He drove the money-changers out of the temple and told His disciples to carry swords.

And Christ never said anything about "striving for an egalitarian society" or fighting capitalism, or any similar socialist nonsense.

You really need to seriously read the Gospels. You'll see that the Christ of the Gospels is not at all the hippy, egalitatarian, proto-Marxist liberal preached by Leftist "Liberation Theology" types!

[quote]Yes you will find Conservative Catholics in other parts of the world, but it really is, for the most part, isolated to the United States and parts of Canada.  This is because the U.S. tends to be very Conservative

Yes the Vatican releases many very Conservative statements, but the rest of the world has no reservations about debate within the Catholic church, possitive dissent, and sharing all sides of the argument...that's the intelligence that God gave us.  Not just blindly taking everything at face value.[/quote]
What the rest of the world thinks should be of very little consequence to the serious Catholic. We are not to be of the World.

We should be concerned with what Christ's Church teaches, not with the foolish opinions of the rest of the world!


[quote]I've thought about it.   I've been a Conservative.  And I truly thought about what Jesus would do.  I honestly see very little in Conservatism that he would be happy with.  The views on abortion and euthanasia yes.  But not the free market, the interolerance and refusal of acceptance for everyone [Jesus accepted prostitutes and people of other religions...he never forced anyone to convert or shun them if they didn't, he led by example.]  I doubt he would support the death penalty, tax cuts for the rich while the poor starve, unjust wars, lying to the American people, The outsourcing of jobs to take advantage of the poor in other parts of the world.

And I'm VERY certain that he would disagree with the amount of money that Conservatives here in North America spend on weapons [especially when the money could go to the poor.]

"The U.S. military budget request for Fiscal Year 2006 is $441.6 billion. (This includes the Defense Department budget and funding for nuclear weapons activity of the Department of Energy Budget. It does not include other items such as money for the Afghan and Iraq wars ($49.1 billion for Fiscal Year 2006), or Homeland Security funding ($41.1 billion for Fiscal Year 2006), for example.)"

Had the Iraq war not occured you could take the 49.1 billion dollars for 2006 alone and feed and shelter some people in other parts of the world.  What is the more noble cause?

I asked myself what Jesus would do, so I usually favour Social Democracy...or the left of the spectrum.  No I'm not pro-abortion, I'm against it.  But in the 6 years that the Bush Administration has been in office....it's actions have been overwhelmingly non-Christian.  And abortion is still legal...after 6 years.

Peace be with all of you,

-Tom
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As I've said Christ calls sinners, but he does indeed call them to convert - never to continue in their sin!

And Leftist socialism is not the answer! The Church has soundly condemned socialism. (See my signature.)
The modern welfare state perpetuates poverty and creates dependence on government.

I've dealt with your similar statements on [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=16825&st=175"]another thread here.[/url]

More on related topics in [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=42213&hl="]this thread.[/url]

[Lounge Daddy]

Catholics should be concerned with Orthodox and Heterodox in matters of Christian faith – rather than Liberal vs Conservative

[Iacobus]

The Church is both liberal and con. The social justice elements of the Church lean more towards liberal and the life issues lean more to the con. The Church is neither wholly one or the other and which one someone sees it leaning tends to be based more on that persons views then on the Church itself.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Iacobus' date='Dec 14 2005, 06:07 PM']The Church is both liberal and con. The social justice elements of the Church lean more towards liberal and the life issues lean more to the con. The Church is neither wholly one or the other and which one someone sees it leaning tends to be based more on that persons views then on the Church itself.
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The Church nowhere formally promotes liberal socialism. This is a mis-interpretation by certain left-leaning members of the laity and clergy.

The Church provides moral principles, which both consevatives and liberals should strive to abide by, rather than endorse a particular economic theory.

[crazymaine catholic]

i feel that the term conservative refers to simply following tradition. the catholic church is based on tradition. everything we do has been handed down. if you think of the church following tradition as being conservative, then i would have to say that the catholic church is indeed more conservative than other religions, because our faith is so rooted in truth, which is the basis for our traditions. other religions, like protestant religions, lack this tradition, and in a way, lack a conservative edge. i think this may be one explanation of conservative that does not delve into the political arena.

[MC Just]

Liberal (also known as the "liberal left"

3 obsolete : lacking moral restraint : LICENTIOUS
4 : not literal or strict : LOOSE <a liberal translation>
5 : BROAD-MINDED; especially : not bound by authoritarianism, orthodoxy, or traditional forms

Catholics are bound by AUTHORITARIANISM and ORTHODOXY. Catholics are TRADITONAL.


Conservative (also known as the "religious right".

3 a : tending or disposed to maintain existing views, conditions, or institutions : TRADITIONAL b : marked by moderation or caution <a conservative estimate> c : marked by or relating to traditional norms of taste, elegance, style, or manners <


Catholics fit more into the second one...CAtholics are "TRADITONAL" They are marked by "CAUTION and MODERATION.


Ecclesiastes 10:2

A wise man's heart directs him toward the right, but the foolish man's heart directs him toward the left.

Some say "jesus was a liberal". (which is a pretty daring thing to say) He was generous and kind, but he was also strict and rigid. He corrected as charity demands so. According to the definition of liberal, No Jesus was not a liberal. JESUS WAS NOT A FOOL.

Our Current Pope Benedict XVI was a "liberal" in the 60's but changed his whole outlook when he saw where liberalism was going.

[Ash Wednesday]

I read somewhere (forgot where) that the church is progressive and innovative -- people that choose paganism are actually regressing, when you think about it -- and place themselves back to a time long before the "Dark Ages."

If people want to brand the Church as "conservative" because she won't bend with the fad thoughts of the day, so be it. I'd rather be a member of a "conservative" church than a wishy-washy one.

[Ash Wednesday]

[quote name='MC Just' date='Dec 14 2005, 06:56 PM']Our Current Pope Benedict XVI  was a "liberal" in the 60's but changed his whole outlook when he saw where liberalism was going.
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Actually that might be a bit of a misconception, I think -- I know I used to say the same thing. It would seem more likely that he stayed true to the faith and never seemed to encourage dissent from the beginning and was never really "liberal." He didn't like how people were running away with the "spirit" of Vatican II after 1965 and he refused to go along with it. I could be mistaken but I believe he stated something along the lines of "I didn't change -- they were the ones that changed."

[Era Might]

Yup. The Holy Father is very emphatic in "The Ratzinger Report" that he never changed. It was others who changed. He stayed true to the Council throughout it all.

Edited December 15, 2005 by Era Might