Doctrine of mental reservation

[Norseman82]

[quote name='beatty07' date='Dec 20 2005, 07:21 PM']
The invasion of Europe on June 6, 1943 [right][snapback]832242[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

1944....

[beatty07]

I thought I made it clear that the D-day example was about why I'm arguing, not a moral argument itself. I'm running out of different ways to state that I don't believe that the ends can justify the means. I don't believe that good ends can justify evil means.

Let's go back to the terrorist with a detonator. What if you had a chance to foil his plan by telling him a lie? I could invent a situation in which the only options were lying to him or killing him. It might be a complicated scenario, but it could certainly exist. According to your position, you would just have to kill him rather than telling a lie. Because killing is sometimes allowable but lying never is. At 2:16AM between packing and studying for a final, I'm not up to a syllogistic refutation of that. I just know it can't be right.

I'm leaving for a few months tomorrow. Please don't think I'm under the impression that I've fired a parting shot and "won." I'm confident you have a good response. Given the time of night, I may have just written something really stupid. Unfortunately, I can't stick around to hear your answer....which is regrettable because this has been a thoroughly enjoyable exchange! Thanks Paphnutius!

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='beatty07' date='Dec 21 2005, 01:28 AM']Let's go back to the terrorist with a detonator.  What if you had a chance to foil his plan by telling him a lie?  I could invent a situation in which the only options were lying to him or killing him.
[/quote]
One should never have the intention of killing the other. One should never resort to killing a person right off. I have shown that if one were in a situation where one had to prevent the detonation of a bomb, one could "attack" the aggressor as long as he did not will or intend his death. If his death resulted from the attempt to save others, it is unfortunate but could be permissible. We are missing the point that when you throw the brick at someone you are not performing an act evil in itself. It is not wrong to throw bricks. The death of the other person may result, but that evil is a result and not a cause. In the situation of lying, telling the falsehood with the intention of deceiving, the evil is the willed action and the cause.

You started by attempting to justify lying in some cases, then went to attacking mental reservations, and now you are back to justifying lying. (we make wonderful circles here on phatmass! ).

Lying is always immoral for it implies an evil intention.

1) Lying is evil (CCC).
2) Evil is not to be done so that good may come from it.
3) Lying is not to be done so that good may come from it.

Mental reservation is not always immoral (one must have a suffecient cause) because:

1) It is not telling a faleshood or lie.
2) The reservation is due to the circumstances and not the words.
3) The intention is not deception.
4) One has a right to veil truths from those who do not have the right to that knowledge.


[quote]I'm leaving for a few months tomorrow.  Please don't think I'm under the impression that I've fired a parting shot and "won."  I'm confident you have a good response.  Given the time of night, I may have just written something really stupid.  Unfortunately, I can't stick around to hear your answer....which is regrettable because this has been a thoroughly enjoyable exchange![/quote]Take care my friend. It has been enjoyable and feel free when you come back to pick this back up for I do not want you to get the impression that I snuck in the last word while you were gone. :