lets try this out for size....

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

where do i write personal on the envelope?

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

[quote name='toledo_jesus' date='Dec 19 2005, 09:37 PM']you won't.  It's time you learned the secret of life.  In the  face of bureaucracy, nothing you do matters.
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even if he doesn't recieve the letter it does matter. i am standing up for truth and i feel that i as a christian have an obligation to do something about it.

[p0lar_bear]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Dec 19 2005, 08:49 PM']where do i write personal on the envelope?
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You don't, not until you've written your priest.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

just wondering.

do you think its fine if i just email him?

[p0lar_bear]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Dec 19 2005, 08:54 PM']just wondering.

do you think its fine if i just email him?
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Priest or bishop?


The priest, yes, but make sure you use proper grammar and punctuation like you would in a written letter (people tend to be too informal in emails).

The bishop, it depends...I know Archbishop Chaput responds to all his emails, but some bishops may not prefer to correspond that way.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

yeah im going to email the priest.

i have already tried to email the bishop in april he did not respond. i think i came off as a trad though so...

[Cow of Shame]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Dec 19 2005, 06:35 PM']

cow of shame i think you know what it means 
[/quote]

Not really. I would imagine there are people who would point to Catholics' ritualistic liturgy as 'fostering a sense of false community.'

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

its a liturgical abuse.... and thats that.

[Cow of Shame]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Dec 19 2005, 07:58 PM']its a liturgical abuse.... and thats that.
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I didn't have an argument with that part of your letter...just the odd 'false community' bit.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

what i mean is that it takes the focus off prayer and off jesus and focuses it on the person's hand your holding, therefore creating a false sense of community focusining on each other and not God.

[Cow of Shame]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Dec 19 2005, 08:04 PM'] focuses it on the person's hand your holding
[/quote]

That sounds like a personal problem to me. heh

...but my family always held hands during the Our Father, before everyone in the whole church started doing it. I don't feel pressured to hold the hand of the person next to me, so it's a bit moot for me.

I can imagine how it would be distracting for some...but if it is, clasp your hands in front of you. I can't imagine anyone wrestling your arm away from you. But that's just my perception

Edited December 20, 2005 by Cow of Shame

[homeschoolmom]

I had a lady come all the way down the pew and grab my clenched hand once. I think you're right, CoS, most people wouldn't do that...

[Cow of Shame]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' date='Dec 19 2005, 08:11 PM']I had a lady come all the way down the pew and grab my clenched hand once.
[/quote]

Now that would just piss me off.

[alicemary]

Email is too informal and would not work with the Bishop unless he has an open forum or encourages it in your diocese.
Your letter is very accusatory, what have YOU done to make things better in your parish? Have you joined your parish council? Have you helped out in the parish? Or are you just complaining?
You mentioned problems, you quote documents,but you offer no solid solutions. Have you asked your fellow parishoners what they think? Personally I like to hold hands during that time, its makes me feel part of the group as a whole.
And in case you are not aware, in modern architecture, there are no kneelers in churches today. Very few churches built in the last several years have kneelers in them.
Your letter comes across as being quite rude. And frankly, writen by a fanatic. Now I am NOT implying you are, I am just telling you, as a person who works in the business world, this letter would not get my attention, I would trash it unread.
Lastly WHY are you writing, what do you hope to gain? I suggest you search your heart and instead of throwing bricks, build bridges of understanding.
My unworthy opinion.
Alicemary

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

im only 14 so i can't do much in my parish.

[qfnol31]

Oh, and about the holding hands thing, the Priest won't say anything because he doesn't want to make everyone mad at him...i.e. alienate himself.

My Priest once said so...he knows it's inappropriate, but he also told me that he didn't want to cause mass scandal and/or a revolt (okay, maybe not so extreme). My parish is really conservative (I'm serious!) and I know a lot of people who were mad at him for months when he said no more snacks were allowed in the sanctuary, especially those for little kids. (He would not make it well in an Orthodox Church! )

Secondly, this has little weight because the USCCB has stopped recommending against it. Unfortunately I think little can be accomplished by keeping it in the letter or by discussing it with your Priest. However, you can begin to refuse holding hands with the people around you and slowly introduce the idea to people you know. I know so many people, with whom I am friends, who have a difficult time accepting my reasoning against it. I shan't go into all of that, but needless to say the Priest really cannot say anything.

Lastly, in regards to holding hands, I don't think the Priest is given permission to forbid holding hands either. I remember reading somewhere about this, but honestly I find this the weakest argument.

I just think, for your sake, and the sake of your argument, that you leave this alone for now.


As for the part on Holy Communion, you don't really say much. You quote Inaestimabile Donum, but I don't think you make as strong of an argument as you can.

Sadly, I doubt much will change in regards to the EMHCs. I have a hard time with them at my parish and have approached my Priest about them. It didn't turn out so well, but I have done the math...we have too many. I actually did the math for someone who's really smart in that area, and he pretty much ignored it...he likes the idea that it's a way to participate in the Liturgy.

Now I mention this last part because before there can be much change, some how there must be a change of heart of the people that attend Mass there...they must come to see that by doing the Signum Crucis, listening to the music (okay, possibly a bad example today), or any of the responses, they are verily and actively participating in the Holy Sacrifice. Unfortunately this is lost...participation now means doing something. Sad thing about poor Catechesis, this distinction gets lost.

This also has very little effect on the Bishop because each Priest is allowed to determine what is best for his parish.


Now I don't mean to discourage you, but to help you with what you are to say. I've had a discussion or few. Also, another Priest at my parish is my spiritual director and I can talk to him about different things. He's helped me through a lot of abuses...I now ignore them, mostly because I have to than anything else...But I think one day we will see a renewal of what is Sacred to us.

Maybe when I'm more coherent I'll post something more meaningful than this.

[qfnol31]

[quote]And in case you are not aware, in modern architecture, there are no kneelers in churches today. Very few churches built in the last several years have kneelers in them.[/quote]

This is an abuse that I think needs to be stopped...kneelers are there to help so people can kneel...it's part of the Westerners we are.


Sam, as regards this, this is the strongest part of your argument. I think that you should kneel yourself, as do I think all who can should in such a situation.

I also think that this is something you can easily just approach the Priest about.


What do you mean about the homilies? I have a Priest at my school (our chaplain, for whom they're looking unsuccessfully for a replacement - diocese issues) who will say heretical things in the homily.

I don't know if you were able to go to any SSPX Masses, but I do believe they have a different approach to their teaching. Not that I necessarily disagree with it, but it follows their whole mindset...just as at an FSSP Tridentine Mass and so on...To be honest, I find it quite rare that Priests will teach as much during their homilies (not saying they don't, I go to a Mass with a 20-minute teaching homily each week at school, and it's good) today. A lot of times they like to focus on living and leave the rest of learning to Catechesis...I'm not so sure that you can find many people wanting to change this, I think...

Oh, and lastly, I know through my diocese that Bishop Vann will be doing all of his correspondence through mail...You can email your diocese and find out.

[jgirl]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Dec 19 2005, 11:00 PM']im only 14 so i can't do much in my parish.
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You could be a server. Also, if your parish has a liturgical committee, you could join it.

[jgirl]

[quote name='qfnol31' date='Dec 19 2005, 11:52 PM']Oh, and about the holding hands thing, the Priest won't say anything because he doesn't want to make everyone mad at him...i.e. alienate himself.[/quote]

At my parish, when we got a new pastor who is much more orthodox than our previous one, he found a creative way to tell the people that holding hands during the Our Father isn't exactly kosher. Wehn flu season came aorund last year and nobody had vaccine, he suggested in his bulletin column that people not hold hands during the Our Father, and then he put in parentheses that they probably shouldn't do it anyways because it's inappropriate and is like adding a second sign of peace into the Mass.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

all these abuses that are going on and me not being able to do anything about them really makes me dislike how the catholic church is bieng run, and how many catholics feel today.

here is the problem: One must be 16 to be on anyone of the commities. second i no longer attened mass at this parish. And their altar "servers" mostly girls actually. are all full.

at the Novus ordo parish that i currently attened their are enough abuses that i am writing a letter to our "pastoral life director" or as I call her the lady who runs our church becasue no priest wants to. we have more liturgical abuses there, but the priests never endorse homosexuality per say but i wounldn't be suprised if anyone of them did.


it seems that contacting this priest and writing this letter to the Cardinal is useless and foolish so i will now concentrate on conving the lady who runs my church to stop the liturgical abuses.


God Bless,

Sam